In your line, I suggest 18...h6 as an improvement to cover g5 and keep the pawns safe. White has a small advantage, but black's two pawns and rook versus white's two minor pieces hold the balance. Black's other rook will come into play, the king will be safe, and the queen is centrally placed for the most effective role. This endgame should bode very well for black once his position becomes completely active. Maybe you will find an improvvement for white?
Is the Wilkes-Barre/Traxler Busted? Probably
Sort:
I don't know if I missed a nice Black response to my move but it seems that 11.d4! is strong. Have you watched that move?
ArKheiN_, I did address this line earlier in the thread and I believe it is the strongest for white. I gave a long line which is probably in need of improvements, but it gave a starting point. Unfortunately we did not continue that path.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nf3 Nxe4 9.Qe2 Nxf2 10.Rf1 Qd6 11.d4 Bxd4 12.Nxd4 Qxd4 13.Rxf2 Bg4 14.Bg5+ Ke6 15.Be3 Qb4+ 16.c3 Qa4 17.b3 Qe4 18.Nd2 Rxf2 19.Qxf2 Qd3 20.Rc1 Rf8 21.Nf3 h6 22.c4 b6 23.c5 b5 24.Rd1 Qf5 25.Qd2 Qe4 26.Qd7+ Kf6 27.Qd3 Bxf3 28.gxf3 Qxf3 29.Kd2 Qd5 30.Rf1+ Ke7 31.Rxf8 Kxf8
I will address 6...Qe8 in the Traxler in a day at most. I wanted to make sure I have done a thorough analysis of the three main moves 7.Nc3, 7.0-0, and 7.d3. In addition, I wanted to complete my analysis on the 9.f3 exf3 10.Qxf3 variation of the Latvian Gambit in the chesspub thread, which you can check now for more details. White is looking fairly nice in these variations.
Yeah I did not see that you already gave that move because the subject went quickly into inferiors lines for White because of sloughterchess. 11.d4! is probably the strongest move as you have seen, but there were some nice traps in your line like 17.Qc2? Rxf2! but there is probably some small improvments in both side too, for exemple 19.Kxf2 instead of 19.Qxf2 might be better. So at the moment it seems that 8..Nxe4 is busted. Indeed, 8..Kf7 might be a better try, but simple development with d3 and Be3 and I don't think Black has enough compensation for the pawn in the long run. Maybe it's still drawable but...
So it's quite incredible that this guy sloughterchess came indeed with a good and simple move for once, maybe not as strong as Bb3 ( I did not check everything about that yet) but it's at least clear +/= with a pawn up in a solid position. It seems that if a refutation of the Traxler exists, it's not with a spectacular win as we could have imagine, but with a "Capablanca style" with a simple position and solid position and a pawn in the hand.
It looks like black may be witnessing another refutation with sloughter's move. Oh well, a sad day it is for Traxler fans. I was really hoping to make 8...Nxe4 work as the alternatives looked very bleak.
In the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bb3 Rf8 7.Nc3 seems to be worst refutation from black's perspective as they will be absolutely blasted and the traps can make the loss even quicker.
This line alone made me want to play 6...Qf8 instead.
My mistake; I thought we were still discussing Bd5. Why, when White is clearly better with 6.Bd5 do we want to go through a protracted discussion of 6.Bb3? Black is busted after 6...Qf8, Thus 6...Rf8 is the only hope.
6.Bb3 is a poorer alternative than 6.Bd5. Here is likely play that Black gets in this line:
This is what I found
7.Nc3 h6 8.Nf3 d6 [8…Qe8 9.d3 Kd8 10.Be3] 9.h3 Qe8 10.d3 Kd8 11.Be3 Bxe3 12.fxe3 Qg6 13.Qe2 Qg3+ 14.Kd2 and white is winning
Sure, I have shown a few lines where white can maintain an advantage with careful play. I am curious to know what you have come up with.
Hello TraxlerRefuter, what you say might be true! But I would like to try it against you just to learn your key move!
Btw, if bxa8=Q, then Qb4!
Your idea of delaying the move after d5 looks completely unsound. It is essentially an inferior Traxler. Your line looks disasterous for black. White can take alll the material and run.
Black doesn't seem to have anything after 10. Qf3
Hi
I'm not sure if I'm missing something obvious but in the line 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bc4 Nf6 4.Ng5 Bc5 5.Bxf7+ Ke7 6.Bd5 Rf8 7.Bxc6 dxc6 8.Nf3 can't Black play a move other than Nxe4 or Kf7? I ran the position through Crafty and it recommends 8...Qd6 9.0-0 Ng4 10.Qe2 Kd8 11.d4 exe4 12.Bg5+ Ke8 13.Nbd2 Be6 14.Qd3 Ne5 as roughly equal (0.09). Also, a natural move IMHO would be simply 8...Bg4 9.d3 and now 9...Qe8.
Yeah Someones you might be right! We are still at the beginning of searching Black's ressources! (And White's anti..). Against 8..Qd6 I think it is better to play with 9.d3 a nice idea for White here, delaying castle for the best moment while a quick d3 can be followed by a quick Be3. So 8..Qd6 9.d3 and now there is some developments, but 8..Qd6 seems really unflexible. 8..Bg4 looks better to me where after 9.d3 Qe8 (9..Qd7!?) I would probably play 10.Be3 again.
At least black is not getting swamped as in the past lines. I see that you changed from 11.d3 Bg4 12.Nc3 to 11.Nc3 Bg4. I will see if I can find something to help black's defense of the endgame.