Is there any refutation to the Sicilian Grand Prix Attack?

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PennsylvanianDude

Smith-Morra Gambit clears the Sicilian.

crazedrat1000

Smith-Morra is quite bad IMO. White isn't getting as much initiative as the players usually think they are - it takes tempo to play c3, what you're essentially doing is clearing the c pawn... but usually black winds up using that file, not white. And when black plays a6 > b5... which he wants to do anyway, the c2 diagonal isn't useful for the queen either. You also can't castle queenside... you're just down a pawn with little to show for it.
There are a few small, subtle advantages white gets, like making room for Bc2 later on. But Black can also play it slow, since... even if he never manages d5, he's just up a pawn anyway, there is no losing endgame as a consequence. I usually play e6 and keep my pawn on d7. 
It's not even that rare - it's a 2nd move line and one of the more common ones. It's honestly one of the easiest lines to deal with in the sicilian.

I do like the Morphy gambit transposition but people don't play that.

PennsylvanianDude

I mean I got a higher rating than you using this "inferior" response to the Silician so I must be doing something right crazedrat.

PennsylvanianDude

Here's a perfect example of the types of attack I can get with the Smith-Morra Gambit with 3.c3 after 2...exd4:

I always get many attacking chances, no matter what black players are after 2.d4. It give me a high win rate against the Silician and I always have the chance to get games like these.

1gladion

Ahh... the greek never gets old. nice game...

PennsylvanianDude

thanks

CranialCramp

Yeah so this depends where it ends up. The Sicilian "Grand Prix" has both a Bc4 and Bb5 main variations. Both of them involve the eventual idea that white wants to play f5 to kick off a kingside attack after black castles. This can be especially gnarly when black has pawns on g6 and e6 rocking that dark square weakness. As black I prefer not to develop the dark square bishop to g7.
There is no clear refutation and its a solid yet out of meta opening. So you do need to study a bit of theory. But It's got pretty clear ideas behind it as opposed to being an overly move order specific opening. Its got a distinctive pawn structure too. So it would probably be helpful to study some of the games by Korchnoi, Nigel Short, Kasparov, Shirov, when they employ the openings. If you learn it as white, you'll have a good idea how to mess with it as black and what white wants out of the positions.

Psychic_Vigilante

No, it does not have a refutation, however you can adopt the following set up and fight for the win in the opposite side castling game. You can sacrifice a pawn on the King side to open files and just wipe white off the board. It is a double edged game but so you need to be careful (as in any opening really)

Psychic_Vigilante
Optimissed wrote:

Oh really? I sometimes do that kind of thing & I've had some quite good wins against it and other closed setups by white. Didn't know it was a standard thing.

Yes, you can do this against the Closed Sicilian in fact this is the only way I play against the closed which you are likely to get after ...a6. I don`t know if it is standard because I do not study theory but I know it is fully playable especially if you play against a weaker opponent - they are quite adept at playing for a draw in the closed vs g6 Bg7 set ups. If I struggle with certain openings I run computer matches on my PC between a stronger and a weaker engine and my old super weak PC came up with this QS side castling idea, I then looked at all the lines on a 10,000Kn/s+ engine and developed a system vs all of white`s move orders in the closed Sicilian. I don`t believe the g6 Bg7 set ups lead to anything for black, especially in quick time controls you are likely to end on the back foot.

crazedrat1000
PennsylvanianDude wrote:

I mean I got a higher rating than you using this "inferior" response to the Silician so I must be doing something right crazedrat.

But you're also now 2000, which means you're going to be encountering more serious resistance and "dumb" lines which were simple and got quick wins are definitely going to stop working at some point. Unlike you I actually play the sicilian as black and I can tell you what lines are good and why, whereas your response.... doesn't say anything about the SM. You should play the sicilian yourself and figure it out. Sicilian players breathe a sigh of relief when you play the Smith Morra. Even if you're set on the anti-sicilian route - there are far better anti-sicilians.

crazedrat1000
PennsylvanianDude wrote:

Here's a perfect example of the types of attack I can get with the Smith-Morra Gambit with 3.c3 after 2...exd4:

I always get many attacking chances, no matter what black players are after 2.d4. It give me a high win rate against the Silician and I always have the chance to get games like these.

Well, at least you're not playing the same first 10 moves 95% of SM players play, so I will give you that. Can you describe what function clearing c2 served in this game? You never used the c file - it even got blocked immediately, because for reasons unknown black traded off his bishop - bad idea. Your queen never used the diagonal... 
You can push f4 without clearing c2, it's called the Mcdonnell attack or the grand prix. You aren't up a tempo if you don't utilize c2.

The most I could see you getting out of this is that you could possibly utilize Bc2 at some point. That didn't happen here, though...

Maybe you just feel more comfortable with Bd3 knowing you have Bc2? And combined with keeping the knight on the kingside you feel this gives you alot of early kingside pressure? It's not really congruent with pushing f4, though, which builds up to an attack. This is why SM players usually play it differently. But overall I'd say this is a tarzan-attack approach to the sicilian, where if you don't win early on... you may as well have played another line, like the Grand Prix.

It might work practically since it allows you to study very specific patterns and just drill them / get easy wins sometimes and not think about anything else. But it is fundamentally an unthinking approach to the game which will not work forever. White doesn't need to do something so desperate to get a strong attack in the sicilian. If you know how to play the sicilian you will get strong attacks.

PennsylvanianDude
crazedrat1000 wrote:
PennsylvanianDude wrote:

Here's a perfect example of the types of attack I can get with the Smith-Morra Gambit with 3.c3 after 2...exd4:

I always get many attacking chances, no matter what black players are after 2.d4. It give me a high win rate against the Silician and I always have the chance to get games like these.

Well, at least you're not playing the same first 10 moves 95% of SM players play, so I will give you that. Can you describe what function clearing c2 served in this game? You never used the c file - it even got blocked immediately, because for reasons unknown black traded off his bishop - bad idea. Your queen never used the diagonal... 
You can push f4 without clearing c2, it's called the Mcdonnell attack or the grand prix. You aren't up a tempo if you don't utilize c2.

The most I could see you getting out of this is that you could possibly utilize Bc2 at some point. That didn't happen here, though...

Maybe you just feel more comfortable with Bd3 knowing you have Bc2? And combined with keeping the knight on the kingside you feel this gives you alot of early kingside pressure? It's not really congruent with pushing f4, though, which builds up to an attack. This is why SM players usually play it differently. But overall I'd say this is a tarzan-attack approach to the sicilian, where if you don't win early on... you may as well have played another line, like the Grand Prix.

It might work practically since it allows you to study very specific patterns and just drill them / get easy wins sometimes and not think about anything else. But it is fundamentally an unthinking approach to the game which will not work forever. White doesn't need to do something so desperate to get a strong attack in the sicilian. If you know how to play the sicilian you will get strong attacks.

clearing the c2 is simply to get ahead in development after 4.Nxc3. I get the initiative early.

PennsylvanianDude

Show me the lines where Black is better.

crazedrat1000

No, you played c3 dxc3 Nxc3. You gained a tempo with dxc3 Nxc3, that's true. But you lost a tempo when you played c3 in the first place. If you just play Nc3 without the gambit you're equal in tempo in terms of your knights development.

Any "tempo gain" comes from clearing c2 for free. That is all. if you don't utilize that in any way - you are not up in tempo.

You could also argue the knight staying on the kingside is slightly more useful in a kingside attack - maybe. But that also happens in other openings, like the Grand Prix, or even the McDonnell if you want it to... There are lines where the forward knight is better, too.

Since c2 is cleared Bd3 is a safer move. Bc2 + Qd3 can form a battery. Hence you may get something interesting with Bd3 + your knight on the kingside. But that's going for something very early, and if you don't get anything from it... I don't see what your advantage is. You don't have any advantage in tempo unless you utilize c2.

Hence why, again, most white players don't slow-push f4 here, they go for something much quicker, as it makes more sense with what they're doing. 
If you don't believe it - well explain why f4 is not even in the top 12 engine moves in the SM position. It's like -0.40 by leela standard, which is almost a full pawn by stockfish. It's not like it's a rare move in the sicilian.

I'm not denying you may get some wins with that early Bd3 + knight still on the kingside, but that's about the extent of it. If that doesn't work... you should have played the Grand Prix instead.

PennsylvanianDude

I mean I win with it. It does not matter what Stockfish thinks, I'm playing against humans. My favorite openings are never the best according to Stockfish, they just win(Budapest Gambit, Alekhine, Vienna, Smith-Morra Gambit, etc.)

PennsylvanianDude

Besides, that diagonal for the bishop after Bd3 is nice.

crazedrat1000

You're playing against humans but you don't understand your compensation, as you thought Nxc3 was the tempo gain. The tempo gain is in clearing c2. And the fact your knight stays on the kingside.

You can play it but it's not good. I would advise you to find something better - especially since you're now 2000, it's not gonna be easy early wins forever. Depends on what your aspirations are. But do you deny that you play this due to its simplicity? I wouldn't deny that it's a simple line and easy to learn. I deny that it's good beyond this. It's easy for black to learn too, you know.

Yeah, your bishop line is interesting and the only reason I'm not really denigrating it is you don't play what everyone else plays. What everyone else plays I call garbage, in your case I'm willing to call it tricks only.

crazedrat1000

Here's the line I like, kind of similar. This is what 95% of SM players play for reasons I don't quite understand -

I just keep the pawn on d7 for a long time and develop everything else.

In his case he's doing something slightly different which makes it a bit better but I still feel it's too reliant on early success, but to each his own

PennsylvanianDude
crazedrat1000 wrote:

Here's the line I like, kind of similar. This is what 95% of SM players play for reasons I don't quite understand -

I just keep the pawn on d7 for a long time and develop everything else.

In his case he's doing something slightly different which makes it a bit better but I still feel it's too reliant on early success, but to each his own

Okay you would not catch me dead playing Nf3 instead of f4. I usually play a f4, Bd3, and Nf3 setup with very nice chances on the kingside. c5 is the only move I'm trying to deal with rn but most Silician players don't play that very often.

PennsylvanianDude
Optimissed wrote:
PennsylvanianDude wrote:

I mean I win with it. It does not matter what Stockfish thinks, I'm playing against humans. My favorite openings are never the best according to Stockfish, they just win(Budapest Gambit, Alekhine, Vienna, Smith-Morra Gambit, etc.)

I agree with one of these. Not Alekhine's though. The 4-pawn attack played properly! Nor Budapest. Definitely the Vienna though. Game, not Gambit.

I live and die by the Alekhine. The 4 pawn attack is actually the variation I love to see. I often get positions like this:

What's so bad about this position? I often find opponents crumbling under the pressure of their center. Also, the Budapest Gambit is also very underrated for Black. Look at this mainstream lines I come across:
I mean, I would not mind playing black in any of these lines. Just because the engine does not approve does not mean it sucks.