Italian Game vs Ruy Lopez
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And @ThePrancinghorsefan23, I agree with you
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a3 a4! 7. Ba2 and the a2-bishop is very passive
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a4 b6! and the c3 Knight has to move
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a4 b6! and the c3 Knight has to move
Elubas wrote:
If you think the ruy lopez is passive then you don't understand it's subtleties well enough. Yes, the bishop is less active, yes it can get pushed around, but with the ruy lopez white is not trying to mate black in 25 moves, he's playing for the strategic goal of both controlling the center, and trying to use the pin to make black weaken his queenside. The pin puts pressure on black's center, so it makes it more likely for white to take control of it, and in the main lines, he indeed gets the two pawn center. And by making black weaken his queenside white gets potential targets there, not that the pawns can't be useful for black either, but it's not something black would want to commit to.
In the italian though, white can't play d4 without sacrificing a pawn.
No in Italian you can play c3
If you think the ruy lopez is passive then you don't understand it's subtleties well enough. Yes, the bishop is less active, yes it can get pushed around, but with the ruy lopez white is not trying to mate black in 25 moves, he's playing for the strategic goal of both controlling the center, and trying to use the pin to make black weaken his queenside. The pin puts pressure on black's center, so it makes it more likely for white to take control of it, and in the main lines, he indeed gets the two pawn center. And by making black weaken his queenside white gets potential targets there, not that the pawns can't be useful for black either, but it's not something black would want to commit to.
In the italian though, white can't play d4 without sacrificing a pawn.
No in Italian you can play c3
the subtleties of the ruy lopez (for both sides!) are lost on the class player.
it is not easy to understand the nagging pressure white has on the position. Or how black has to retosrt to often unintuitive maneuvers to get counterplay (nc6-nb8, nd7 ,c5, first time i saw moves like that in the ruy, i just thought black wanted to play some other opening)
personally, never saw the appeal to long 15-20 move lines for black in the ruy, i rather deviate early , but it is a very rich opening and that stuff matters at master level.
PLXMN2 wrote:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a3 a4! 7. Ba2 and the a2-bishop is very passive
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a4 b6! and the c3 Knight has to move
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a4 b6! and the c3 Knight has to move
the best line results in white being much better
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
the subtleties of the ruy lopez (for both sides!) are lost on the class player.
it is not easy to understand the nagging pressure white has on the position. Or how black has to retosrt to often unintuitive maneuvers to get counterplay (nc6-nb8, nd7 ,c5, first time i saw moves like that in the ruy, i just thought black wanted to play some other opening)
personally, never saw the appeal to long 15-20 move lines for black in the ruy, i rather deviate early , but it is a very rich opening and that stuff matters at master level.
From what I can tell, the Closed Morphy is outclassed by the Marshall Attack and Berlin Defense, both of which shut down White’s advantage quite handily. I agree with not seeing the appeal to the 20-move Closed Morphy variations, as I think White holds a comfortable edge no matter what Black does in the Closed Morphy.
PLXMN2 wrote:
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a3 a4! 7. Ba2 and the a2-bishop is very passive
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a4 b6! and the c3 Knight has to move
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5!? a6 4. Ba4 b5! 5. Bb6 a5! 6. a4 b6! and the c3 Knight has to move
For one Nc3 hasn't been played, so the knight doesn't have to move in that second line. Besides that, White doesn't have to move the a-pawn, it's a waste of a move. Instead you can just castle and move the bishop to the d5 square since you haven't played Nf6 yet. If you do take the time to play Nf6 then a4 is fine for White, and since he has already had time to castle after this extra move he's going to open the center with d4 and you're pretty far behind on development. no bueno.