Jobava-Prie Attack

my137thaccount

What do you think of the Jobava-Prie Attack? I feel that it is a good way for white to steer the game into positions that he is comfortable, preventing black from entering his pet lines/structures. Here is an example:

It's obvious that the 'threat' of taking on c7 is not real, but what is achieved is that black is forced to commit his pieces defending it, which denies him the usual active counterplay in the centre (for example c5+Qb6 against the London). White has a choice of either playing solidly and outplaying his opponent in an equal position (as in this Jobava-Topalov game) or pushing the g and h-pawns on the kingside, either way giving white straightforward plans and taking black out of autopilot mode (especially effective against King's Indian players). This also stops black from being able to avoid the Anti-Dutch setup 1.d4 f5 2.Nc3, which is supposed to be quite effective for white. Given these benefits I'm not sure why the opening isn't seen so often.

IMBacon

White has given up the lead in development.

Moves the knight twice, unnecessarily, for an attack that never existed.

5.a3 accomplishes nothing.

6.Nc3 blocks the c-pawn, preventing the c4 pawn break, unless white moves the knight again for the third time.

Why not 6...Qb6

It might just be me, but i do not see what white gains from all of this?

 

my137thaccount
IMBacon wrote:

White has given up the lead in development.

Moves the knight twice, unnecessarily, for an attack that never existed.

5.a3 accomplishes nothing.

6.Nc3 blocks the c-pawn, preventing the c4 pawn break, unless white moves the knight again for the third time.

Why not 6...Qb6

It might just be me, but i do not see what white gains from all of this?

 

First of all, as you are an opening principles purist, your suggested move 6...Qb6 moves the queen too early in the opening and violates the principle 'don't go pawn hunting in the opening' as the b2 pawn can't be captured happy.png

 

I did answer some of your questions already, but 5.a3 does not accomplish nothing, as it is prophylaxis against Bb4+, as well as your suggestion of Qb6.

White is not trying to achieve the c-pawn break in this system, but that's fine as neither is black, who has already played c6. There are setups where black may play c5, for instance this:

However, there still isn't central tension in this setup, so black can't argue that white gave him the initiative in the centre. After all white plays Nc3 blocking the c-pawn in 1.e4 openings, including in lines where white refrains from the d4 break but plays d3 instead.

I explained that the purpose of the 'attack' on c7 is to force black to play his hand - it's not like black's knight on a6 is better placed than white's on c3.

IMO this is a perfectly valid opening and GM Baadur Jobava seems to have the same opinion

IMBacon

The queen develops early in many openings.  Does that make the French Advanced a bad variation?  Of course not.  The queen developing early here serves a purpose.

Black wouldn't play the Bishop to b4.  It is misplaced there.

The knight on a6 prepares a c5 pawn break, where the knight on c3 prevents a pawn break.  Its always nice to have options available.

I'm not saying there is anything horribly wrong with the opening.  I'm just answering your question regarding what do people think of it.  I simply like black in this line. 

my137thaccount
IMBacon wrote:

The queen develops early in many openings.  Does that make the French Advanced a bad variation?  Of course not.  The queen developing early here serves a purpose.

Black wouldn't play the Bishop to b4.  It is misplaced there.

The knight on a6 prepares a c5 pawn break, where the knight on c3 prevents a pawn break.  Its always nice to have options available.

I'm not saying there is anything horribly wrong with the opening.  I'm just answering your question regarding what do people think of it.  I simply like black in this line. 

Fair enough happy.png

IMBacon
my137thaccount wrote:
IMBacon wrote:

The queen develops early in many openings.  Does that make the French Advanced a bad variation?  Of course not.  The queen developing early here serves a purpose.

Black wouldn't play the Bishop to b4.  It is misplaced there.

The knight on a6 prepares a c5 pawn break, where the knight on c3 prevents a pawn break.  Its always nice to have options available.

I'm not saying there is anything horribly wrong with the opening.  I'm just answering your question regarding what do people think of it.  I simply like black in this line. 

Fair enough

See...we have proven that 2 people can have a discussion and not agree :-)

darkunorthodox88

certainly not the worst thing i have ever seen. i give you points for creativity,especially given your low rating,but its not clear to me what white accomplishes. He is slightly behind the development, his c-pawn is blocked, and black will get the nice qb6 aiming for the weak b-pawn soon enough. Unlike black's solid pawn structure, white's center is also not as unshakable. 

 

stick to the veserov if you like these early nc3 lines or just play a "normal" jobava attack.

congrandolor
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

certainly not the worst thing i have ever seen. i give you points for creativity,especially given your low rating,but its not clear to me what white accomplishes. He is slightly behind the development, his c-pawn is blocked, and black will get the nice qb6 aiming for the weak b-pawn soon enough. Unlike black's solid pawn structure, white's center is also not as unshakable. 

 

stick to the veserov if you like these early nc3 lines or just play a "normal" jobava attack.

Or free your inner Jobava

IMBacon
congrandolor wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

certainly not the worst thing i have ever seen. i give you points for creativity,especially given your low rating,but its not clear to me what white accomplishes. He is slightly behind the development, his c-pawn is blocked, and black will get the nice qb6 aiming for the weak b-pawn soon enough. Unlike black's solid pawn structure, white's center is also not as unshakable. 

 

stick to the veserov if you like these early nc3 lines or just play a "normal" jobava attack.

Or free your inner Jobava

"Free your inner Jobava"

That would make a great t-shirt.

poucin

 

poucin

It is not as simple as so claim here.

The first position given is quite fine for white.

Nc3 blocks c pawn ok but what about black?

Ca6 misplaced, Bc8 locked, and white can use e5 square.

Topalov got an equal position for black, but he was just fighting for the draw when he collapsed with 29.Qc4 (Rc8 was the move),  White had a better pawn structure and threatened to enter a winning pawn endgame, thats why Topalov had a very hard time to hold.

poucin

Another gem from the the georgian GM :

 

darkunorthodox88

Jobava and Rapport are my favs, but idk if a person should be TOO inspired by jobava in their formative years. its safer to master your rules before you go chasing for exceptions. (like im one to talk , i played A00 and B00 virtually exclusively since i was a 1200.)

stiggling
poucin wrote:

Another gem from the the georgian GM :

 

Making a 2700 GM look like a fish. I know it's a rapid game, but holy crap.

MickinMD

I would rather have Black's position in the OP's diagram.  Better development and after castling then Re1, Black is threatening ...e5 and opening up the Kingside where every one of his pieces except his QN and QR are pointing.

ThrillerFan

I have seen many of the Jobava-Prie attack games in section 8 on chesspublishing.com.  It simply looks like London players were getting sick of drawing, these two clowns thought they were up to something, and maybe they were until people figured out the early c5 lines, and now it is back to that dead equal status.  There is no refutation to White' s play, but white has no advantage.  No different in strength than the London System or the Sokolsky Opening (1.b4).

darkunorthodox88

when i was learning chess as a scholastic player with the chessmaster program, i often didnt understand WHY early bf4 was frowned upon in GM games from back in Kasparov's era. i always thought positions looked completely fine, same with early nc3 queen pawn games. 

Jobava was pretty much the in vivo vindication of that hunch. That players back then, were purists. Ironically, its the computer era of chess that has returned some of the romanticism back into the game, albeit a more "universal pragmatism" approach to these openings. Now, even stuff like 1.b3 is no stranger to even Super GM practice.

IndreRe

Go see my blog posts happy.png 

SaintMark

 Why does everyone keep getting the name of this opening wrong?

 The correct name is Mark's Opening:

Marksopening.blogspot.com

poucin
SaintMark a écrit :

 Why does everyone keep getting the name of this opening wrong?

 The correct name is Mark's Opening:

Marksopening.blogspot.com

Your main variation goes 1.d4 Nf6 2.Nc3 d5 3.Bf4 Bf5 4.Nf3 but u should know that Jobava and almost every titled players goes for 4.f3 with g4 in mind.

Your variations are rather innocuous so don't be surprised if we don't call it the Mark's opening...