King's Indian Attack ok or not?

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Avatar of gorgeous_vulture

I think the KIA is played a lot among we patzers because it can be a lot of fun and, in most lines, offers a very simple plan: attack like a madman on the kingside and try and get to white's king before he eviscerates you on the queenside.

Hardly sound chess and it doesn't help you get to the next level, but it can be a lot of fun and a way to improve your tactical skills without having too worry too much about opening theory.

In short, it has value as a bridge between novice and learning to play somewhat seriously.

Avatar of Atos
Fezzik wrote:

Atos' post #12 is precisely the sort of argument that fails miserably. Fischer did indeed play, and win with the KIA. He even played it relatively late in his career.

But against the Sicilian, his favorite variation was the Open Sicilian. You don't see these KIA afficionados recommending the Open Sicilian main lines "because Fischer played them".

When Fischer played the very best in the world  as White in the Sicilian (Taimanov, Petrosian, Spassky), he chose the Open Sicilian.


You are right that Fischer played the Open Sicilian, and in fact was probably the greatest expert of his day on the Open Sicilian. So, if he also played the KIA against the Sicilian, it certainly wasn't due to laziness or ignorance of opening theory.

Avatar of DrDCameOutSwinging
uhohspaghettio wrote:

It's used for surprise value only and to play to the opponent's weaknesses. No GM would use it as a serious opening, that was practically the only time Karpov ever played it. It's fine to use as a back-up plan or as a surprise opening, just as long as it's not your main opening.


So Emms is really not serious, he only wants to earn money: his suggested system for white is really rubbish. Is this it? And Fischer used it as a surprise, to fool other GMs who (presumably) never had seen this system until Bobby played it aganst them?

It just doesn't seem right to me. Still, I havn't hardly played KIA so I shouldn't argue for it (but I KID a lot).

Still, it seems somewhat improbable that it is only as a suprise weapon. It is hardly a difficult gambit we are talking about, with only one forced line to equality.

Avatar of Atos

Fischer wasn't the first top player to use the KIA, either, so it's hard to imagine that the opponents were completely unfamiliar with it. 

Avatar of motty_474

   If gaining a slight edge in the opening phase (while I consider this to be only a minor asset) with very accurate play is your intention then the KIA is not the opening for you. Instead you should be looking for something like a Queens Gambit or a Ruy Lopez.

   However, if you want a clear, easy-to-learn move sequence that can be used against most (if not all) black setups with excellent middlegame potential and generally strategical play, then this is the opening for you.

   With the KIA, white is essentially playing the respected black opening, the kings indian defense, but with an extra tempo, which is considered an asset in the opening, thus should result in an edge for white. The reason why in practice, there is approximate equality is that many KIA players don't know how to make use of this extra tempo.

   Despite its appearance in the opening phase, the KIA is actually a quite aggressive opening, as white has potential for powerful kingside attacks if black is not careful and queenside activity with pawn play. The g2 bishop often moves to h3 as the h3-c8 diagonal is often more active than the h1-a8 diagonal.

   A common pawn advance in the KIA is the delayed e4 advance, supported by d3 (although some players prefer the c4 advance, creating a sort of reversed benoni). The f3 knight commonly moves to h4 or d2 to support an f2-f4 advance(another common theme in the KIA, as it gains potential for kingside attacks).

   The b1 knight is flexible, and it can move to d2, c3 or even a3 depending on the player's taste and the position, but most KIA players like the d2 square as there it cannot be chased off by the annoying ..d5-d4 that can occur if the knight was on c3, and on d2, white has potential to move the knight to the excellent c4 square, eyeing e5. White often plays a4 to secure the knight on this square by preventing the annoying ...b7-b5 advance.

   The c1 bishop is also very flexible and it is very often left on c1 for most of the game (as in Fischer vs Ivkov near the top of this forum). The bishop is sometimes also fianchettoed on b2 and (less commonly) placed on a3, depending on the position. There are occasions where the bishop is sacrificed on h6, gaining kingside attacking prospects.

   So if you are a strategist who is looking for clear plans throughout the opening and middlegame phases, and don't mind the fact that the opening does not usually have quite as strong an edge as certain other openings, the give the Kings Indian Attack a try.

Avatar of acbell1996

i used to play this always when i was looking for an opening to play as white. I don't really know how well i played it but one thing i noticed was that pieces would rarely be traded until later--also, i think if white wants to draw, his chances are greatly increased with this, as i drew many more games than i ever did with any more openings than this one.

Avatar of gorgeous_vulture

Adding to the, "it's fun to play", argument, see below (apparently it does get trotted out by masters in tournaments now and again). FM (now IM-elect) Mandizha did admit that his attack was not entirely sound and he benefitted from mistakes by his opponent, however, he had fun playing it and won (with a norm on the line!)

Avatar of Puggle
OmarCayenne wrote:
DrDCameOutSwinging wrote:

Dvoretsky says it is a good choice for an attacking repotear. Emms too, Jesper Hall. Bobby Fischer used it. Bologan, Morozovich, to mention two modern and very stong players.

But, then there are so many other players claiming that KIA is toothless. "It doesn't create any problems for Black". Watson, e.g., says Black can easily equalize.

How can this be?


Everybody's got their own opinion.  Still, looking at the players on either side there, I suppose I'd have to conclude that the KIA's got some merit.

My guess is that Watson wouldn't find it so toothless if he looked up to see Bobby sitting across the board from him...


 Well, Watson is of course best...almost "only"...known as an opening theorist.  And as a staunch advocate of the French defense.  Without looking it up, I rather imagine he spoke these words while talking about the KIA's potential against his beloved French defense.

And in truth, he's 100% correct.  The French equalizes without much difficulty versus the KIA, as long as the black player knows what he's doing.  But it's the sort of equality where there is a long, strategic, and often bloody battle ahead.

I say this as a player who plays both openings.

Watson could equalize without much difficulty playing Fischer on the black side of a KIA.  Hell, *I* could equalize without much difficulty playing Fischer on the black side of a KIA.

It's just that after the opening phase was through, Watson would get slaughtered.

And me?  Sitting there looking at a position of equality on the board, and Bobby Fischer sitting over there ready to take the controls for the middle game, I'd reach my hand across the table hopefully.  If he didn't shake it, I'd probably just go ahead and tip my king over and head to the lounge for martinis and a post mortem.

Avatar of DrDCameOutSwinging

Thanks for all the contributions. 

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Avatar of GreenLeaf14
lefecious wrote:

This is a newbie question, but in the example above, I don't understand black's decision on move 28.  Why would you leave your queen completely open to attack there?  I'm sure there's a reason, but I can't see it yet.

because if 1rook x queen, rook+ 2.rook x rook rook x rook #