Learning 1.e4 e5 thoroughly

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Avatar of Chicken_Monster
ipcress12 wrote:

Who are the great champions of the Open Spanish ?

Yusupov defended a fair number of them, including against Karpov and Kasparov.

He's an interesting character with an unusual taste in openings.

Perhaps he is an unusual character with an interesting taste in openings?

Would you elaborate?

Avatar of Chicken_Monster
Optimissed wrote:
Chicken_Monster wrote:

Thanks all.

@Smyslov [OR ANYONE WITH INPUT]: Two questions.

(1) Why do you say you are not so sure that open Spanish is a good long-term choice?

(2) What are a few exemplary openings that might be better long-term choices (perhaps after one is more advanced) in your opinion, and why?

I'm not so sure because I basically know a little about 1 d4 openings and much less than that about the Spanish. However, the Spanish is often a rather closed opening for 1 e4 and it seems white has good chances keeping it that way and limiting black's counterplay if possible. Hence Fischer's favourite ploy of keeping the centre closed and attacking with pawns on the K side, often directly preventing the open variation, which might tend too much towards simplification. My recollection is that white keeps a small edge and black, when he goes into the open variation, may not have as many chances as he or she would often like. Could be wrong here because it's a long time since I played K-side openings.

What is your opening rep like?

Avatar of TheOldReb

Fischer never avoided the open variation of the RL .

Avatar of Optimissed

Yes, I believe Fischer often directly prevented it. One method, as I recall, was by Qe2. This is my now faulty memory, of course.

As white I generally play 1d4 2c4 openings, Mr Chicken_Monster. A decade and a half ago I was reasonably adept at the English, which was great for match play but in five round Swiss tournaments, played over two days or two days and an evening, playing the English wore me out and made me ineffective in the last round. So I sought something much more aggressive, whilst keeping clear of overly bookish e4 lines. I find 1d4 2c4 excellent in that it suits my style of dominating the centre and attacking the king, except in the Classical King's Indian, where white attacks on the Q side. In Queen's Gambits there are usually options available to go into highly positional lines or into IQP attacking lines. I play the Sicilian O'Kelly, which is fine against under 2300s and the Modern Benoni, which is also highly aggressive and so complex that it isn't necessary to know all that much theory. Against the English I prefer reversed Sicilians. That's my only foray into e4 (or rather e5) openings.

Avatar of ghostofmaroczy
Optimissed advertised weakness:

Yes, I believe Fischer often directly prevented it. One method, as I recall, was by Qe2. This is my now faulty memory, of course.

As white I generally play 1d4 2c4 openings, Mr Chicken_Monster. A decade and a half ago I was reasonably adept at the English, which was great for match play but in five round Swiss tournaments, played over two days or two days and an evening, playing the English wore me out and made me ineffective in the last round. So I sought something much more aggressive, whilst keeping clear of overly bookish e4 lines. I find 1d4 2c4 excellent in that it suits my style of dominating the centre and attacking the king, except in the Classical King's Indian, where white attacks on the Q side. In Queen's Gambits there are usually options available to go into highly positional lines or into IQP attacking lines. I play the Sicilian O'Kelly, which is fine against under 2300s and the Modern Benoni, which is also highly aggressive and so complex that it isn't necessary to know all that much theory. Against the English I prefer reversed Sicilians. That's my only foray into e4 (or rather e5) openings.

Avatar of Optimissed

I seem to recall Fischer also played a very early d3, followed by h3.

Avatar of ipcress12

Perhaps [Yusupov] is an unusual character with an interesting taste in openings?

Would you elaborate?

Chicken: It's largely forgotten but Yusupov was a force in the World Championship candidates matches in the 80s and 90s. He shared first place in the 2002 World Open. He never made it to the top two or three players; still he was in the creme de la creme.

He was also a protege of Mark Dvoretsky, the world-renowned chess coach. Yusupov formed an alliance with Dvoretsky and together they set up a chess school. Yusupov published the award-winning series of orange books tutoring 1600 players on to Master level.

I'm building my tiny little opening repertorire and keep finding Yusupov ahead of me in the French and Dutch.

I've read a few interviews and Yusupov emerges as a brilliant, capable guy with a sense of proportion.

Not to mention, a beard you could hide a badger in.

Avatar of chess2Knights

Alekhine was hoping Bottvinik would play or allow the open Ruy ( not sure who he was hoping to have the white pcs or vice versa) against him in the WCC match they never got to play

Avatar of TheOldReb
Optimissed wrote:

Yes, I believe Fischer often directly prevented it. One method, as I recall, was by Qe2. This is my now faulty memory, of course.

As white I generally play 1d4 2c4 openings, Mr Chicken_Monster. A decade and a half ago I was reasonably adept at the English, which was great for match play but in five round Swiss tournaments, played over two days or two days and an evening, playing the English wore me out and made me ineffective in the last round. So I sought something much more aggressive, whilst keeping clear of overly bookish e4 lines. I find 1d4 2c4 excellent in that it suits my style of dominating the centre and attacking the king, except in the Classical King's Indian, where white attacks on the Q side. In Queen's Gambits there are usually options available to go into highly positional lines or into IQP attacking lines. I play the Sicilian O'Kelly, which is fine against under 2300s and the Modern Benoni, which is also highly aggressive and so complex that it isn't necessary to know all that much theory. Against the English I prefer reversed Sicilians. That's my only foray into e4 (or rather e5) openings.

Do you know what the open variation of the RL is ?  after  1 e4 e5  2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5  a6  4 Ba4  Nf6  5 0-0  Nxe4 is the open RL ... to avoid it white has to play something other than 5 0-0 ( or deviate earlier )  Fischer reached the position after 4... Nf6  in 86 games and only once did he not play 5 0-0 .... he played 5 d3 once against Smyslov  and never played 5 Qe2 , so he didnt avoid the Open and 8 times opponents chose the open against him and he lost only once ... to Larsen  in the Open . 

Avatar of ipcress12

Reb: I'll nitpick a tiny bit and throw in the times Fischer played his version of the Ruy Exchange and thus avoided the Open and all the Closed lines.

As I recall, that Smyslov game in which Fischer played 5 d3 was one in which he hesitated for twenty minutes or so debating whether to unleash his secret Exchange analysis and chose to save it for later.

Avatar of Optimissed

<<to avoid it white has to play something other than 5 0-0 ( or deviate earlier )>>

Yes Reb. Also, as I recall, there's a viable variation where white diverts his QN via f1 before he castles. AS you say, 5 d3 prevents the Open Variation and it's a playable move. Since I carefully explained that my memory of these things has faded considerably, you might perhaps do us the favour of being less confrontational?

Avatar of TheOldReb
Airut wrote:
Chicken_Monster wrote:

Thanks all.

@Smyslov [OR ANYONE WITH INPUT]: Two questions.

(1) Why do you say you are not so sure that open Spanish is a good long-term choice?

 

Black is having tough time in some lines(namely 9.Nbd2 and 9.Qe2) and its heavy on theory.

@ Reb

I can think of Korchnoi, Yusupov, Larsen, Euwe, Krasenkow, Mikhalevski.

I wasnt aware that Euwe liked the Open RL ,  thanks . 

Avatar of TheOldReb

The thing is that I dont believe Fischer avoided the Open , he had a good record against it and no logical reason to avoid it  .  I don't assume he played the exchange variation in order to avoid the Open variation , for example , even though it does avoid it . The exchange variation also avoids many other lines in the RL , such as the marshall counter attack , so some might assume he played the exchange variation to avoid the marshall counter attack , maybe he played the exchange to avoid the dreaded counter thrust variation ?  Wink

Avatar of SmyslovFan

More to the point, Fischer explained why he chose the Exchange variation in My Sixty Memorable Games. It wasn't because he was trying to avoid the Open Variation!

Avatar of TheOldReb

I personally like to play the center attack in the RL but if you wait until move 6 to play 6 d4  then you must be prepared to meet the Open so I started playing 5 d4  instead and I do it to avoid the Open ... 

Avatar of Optimissed

The Exchange Variation reduces black's counterplay or forces it along specific lines and Fischer liked control. Black is forced to attack ... otherwise his pawn formation is weak in an ending. Yet maybe white's development is ahead of black's and white can quietly proceed with it and await events.

Avatar of ipcress12

I doubt Fischer cared about avoiding the Open variation.

I don't know when the Open variation had its heyday, but it was over by the 1960s. The Open is an OK alternative to the Closed lines, but to my knowledge no White players fear it particularly, though they might, like Reb, prefer to lighten their theory load.

Avatar of Optimissed

No, you don't fear it but the point is that you might prefer a more complex game than it affords.

Avatar of ipcress12

Are there any enthusiasts for the Open Ruy here?

I never met anyone who played it even in blitz.

Avatar of Optimissed

It might have been a jolly good idea for your opponent to move his queen before he moved the knight at 19 though?

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