Learning The Sicilian

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chesshole
AdorableMogwai wrote:
chesshole wrote:

don't bother learning the Sicilian, 2.c3 refutes it

Is that why GM Sergei Tiviakov, who specializes in the Alapin and made the Chessbase DVD on it, plays the Sicilian as black in many of his games?

like you said, he specializes in the Alapin.  It is white the chooses to play the Alapin, black just goes along for the ride.  Btw I'm sure a lot of grandmasters do a lot of different things.  Using one grandmaster as an example and saying: 'well this guy does this!' doesn't prove anything.

Derekjj
chesshole wrote:
AdorableMogwai wrote:
chesshole wrote:

don't bother learning the Sicilian, 2.c3 refutes it

Is that why GM Sergei Tiviakov, who specializes in the Alapin and made the Chessbase DVD on it, plays the Sicilian as black in many of his games?

like you said, he specializes in the Alapin.  It is white the chooses to play the Alapin, black just goes along for the ride.  Btw I'm sure a lot of grandmasters do a lot of different things.  Using one grandmaster as an example and saying: 'well this guy does this!' doesn't prove anything.

I don't really see the point of memorizing and studying particular openings below master level. Seems no one want to play chess anymore.

AdorableMogwai
chesshole wrote:

like you said, he specializes in the Alapin.  It is white the chooses to play the Alapin, black just goes along for the ride.  Btw I'm sure a lot of grandmasters do a lot of different things.  Using one grandmaster as an example and saying: 'well this guy does this!' doesn't prove anything.

He doesn't just specialize it in, he's regarded as one of the top Alapin experts in the world, and as black he still plays the Sicilian most of the time, as can be seen here http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=14003

It's not white who chooses to play the Alapin, but black who chooses to play the Sicilian inviting white to play the Alapin. Sicilian players become very familiar with all the so called "anti-sicilians", so unless white is a Sicilian player themself black will have more experience with the Alapin than white does, number of games played being equal of course. By playing the Alapin you're not being clever nor are you taking black out of their comfort zone or whatever you think you're doing, quite the contrary.

When I just started to play chess and first encountered the Sicilian (of course then I didn't know it was called a Sicilian) my response was to play 2.c3 because I wanted to play d4. From what I've seen this is a common response for many people the first time they see the Sicilian. This just shows what a primitive idea the whole thing is. It's absolutely hilarious the lengths people will go to to try and avoid the Sicilian main lines, and even more hilarious that they actually think they're being clever by doing it or posing any problems for black whatsoever out of the opening.

odisea777
chessph wrote:
chesshole wrote:
AdorableMogwai wrote:
chesshole wrote:

don't bother learning the Sicilian, 2.c3 refutes it

Is that why GM Sergei Tiviakov, who specializes in the Alapin and made the Chessbase DVD on it, plays the Sicilian as black in many of his games?

like you said, he specializes in the Alapin.  It is white the chooses to play the Alapin, black just goes along for the ride.  Btw I'm sure a lot of grandmasters do a lot of different things.  Using one grandmaster as an example and saying: 'well this guy does this!' doesn't prove anything.

I don't really see the point of memorizing and studying particular openings below master level. Seems no one want to play chess anymore.

I have to agree. I tried to study some openings, but studying openings implies you have done a lot of other groundwork - strategy, tactics, etc. I just got lost trying to follow the different lines. Learning basic opening principles helped me a lot more.

chesshole
AdorableMogwai wrote:
chesshole wrote:

like you said, he specializes in the Alapin.  It is white the chooses to play the Alapin, black just goes along for the ride.  Btw I'm sure a lot of grandmasters do a lot of different things.  Using one grandmaster as an example and saying: 'well this guy does this!' doesn't prove anything.

He doesn't just specialize it in, he's regarded as one of the top Alapin experts in the world, and as black he still plays the Sicilian most of the time, as can be seen here http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=14003

It's not white who chooses to play the Alapin, but black who chooses to play the Sicilian inviting white to play the Alapin. Sicilian players become very familiar with all the so called "anti-sicilians", so unless white is a Sicilian player themself black will have more experience with the Alapin than white does, number of games played being equal of course. By playing the Alapin you're not being clever nor are you taking black out of their comfort zone or whatever you think you're doing, quite the contrary.

When I just started to play chess and first encountered the Sicilian (of course then I didn't know it was called a Sicilian) my response was to play 2.c3 because I wanted to play d4. From what I've seen this is a common response for many people the first time they see the Sicilian. This just shows what a primitive idea the whole thing is. It's absolutely hilarious the lengths people will go to to try and avoid the Sicilian main lines, and even more hilarious that they actually think they're being clever by doing it or posing any problems for black whatsoever out of the opening.

lol, i thought you were making some good points until you said what a primitive idea 2.c3 is.  2.c3 is super logical, looking for a d4 push to build a classical pawn center on d4 and e4.  2.c3 is also clever because it neutralizes many of the counteracting/asymmetrical ideas of black right out of the opening.  It is clever enough to have been used by Kasparov, Karpov, Anand and Karpov.  Just because something is 'common' doesn't mean it is bad.

P.S.  I don't really think c3 refutes the Sicilian, I just think it takes a lot of fun out of the opening for black.  So instead of a sharp counteracting game that black might hope for from the Sicilian, they are left with more like a French defence opening and often 2.c3 Sicilians can transpose into the French defence.

chesshole
UltraLaser wrote:
chesshole wrote:
AdorableMogwai wrote:
chesshole wrote:

like you said, he specializes in the Alapin.  It is white the chooses to play the Alapin, black just goes along for the ride.  Btw I'm sure a lot of grandmasters do a lot of different things.  Using one grandmaster as an example and saying: 'well this guy does this!' doesn't prove anything.

He doesn't just specialize it in, he's regarded as one of the top Alapin experts in the world, and as black he still plays the Sicilian most of the time, as can be seen here http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=14003

It's not white who chooses to play the Alapin, but black who chooses to play the Sicilian inviting white to play the Alapin. Sicilian players become very familiar with all the so called "anti-sicilians", so unless white is a Sicilian player themself black will have more experience with the Alapin than white does, number of games played being equal of course. By playing the Alapin you're not being clever nor are you taking black out of their comfort zone or whatever you think you're doing, quite the contrary.

When I just started to play chess and first encountered the Sicilian (of course then I didn't know it was called a Sicilian) my response was to play 2.c3 because I wanted to play d4. From what I've seen this is a common response for many people the first time they see the Sicilian. This just shows what a primitive idea the whole thing is. It's absolutely hilarious the lengths people will go to to try and avoid the Sicilian main lines, and even more hilarious that they actually think they're being clever by doing it or posing any problems for black whatsoever out of the opening.

lol, i thought you were making some good points until you said what a primitive idea 2.c3 is.  2.c3 is super logical, looking for a d4 push to build a classical pawn center on d4 and e4.  2.c3 is also clever because it neutralizes many of the counteracting/asymmetrical ideas of black right out of the opening.  It is clever enough to have been used by Kasparov, Karpov, Anand and Karpov.  Just because something is 'common' doesn't mean it is bad.

P.S.  I don't really think c3 refutes the Sicilian, I just think it takes a lot of fun out of the opening for black.  So instead of a sharp counteracting game that black might hope for from the Sicilian, they are left with more like a French defence opening and often 2.c3 Sicilians can transpose into the French defence.

Absolutely not like a french, unless black chooses to play a not-very-common 2...e6 and 3...d5. The 2 most common replies to c3, Nf6 and d5, do not end up like french defenses whatsoever. I wouldn't say it exactly takes the fun out of the opening for black, but just gives completely different positions to the mainlines.

2.c3 Sicilian is a lot like the French, you have no idea what you are talking about, it often transposes into the French defence; I have seen ...e6 and ...d5 a lot when playing 2.c3 as white.  If you played 2.c3 as a standard response to the Sicilian on this site, so would you.

chesshole
UltraLaser wrote:
chesshole wrote:
UltraLaser wrote:
chesshole wrote:
AdorableMogwai wrote:
chesshole wrote:

like you said, he specializes in the Alapin.  It is white the chooses to play the Alapin, black just goes along for the ride.  Btw I'm sure a lot of grandmasters do a lot of different things.  Using one grandmaster as an example and saying: 'well this guy does this!' doesn't prove anything.

He doesn't just specialize it in, he's regarded as one of the top Alapin experts in the world, and as black he still plays the Sicilian most of the time, as can be seen here http://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessplayer?pid=14003

It's not white who chooses to play the Alapin, but black who chooses to play the Sicilian inviting white to play the Alapin. Sicilian players become very familiar with all the so called "anti-sicilians", so unless white is a Sicilian player themself black will have more experience with the Alapin than white does, number of games played being equal of course. By playing the Alapin you're not being clever nor are you taking black out of their comfort zone or whatever you think you're doing, quite the contrary.

When I just started to play chess and first encountered the Sicilian (of course then I didn't know it was called a Sicilian) my response was to play 2.c3 because I wanted to play d4. From what I've seen this is a common response for many people the first time they see the Sicilian. This just shows what a primitive idea the whole thing is. It's absolutely hilarious the lengths people will go to to try and avoid the Sicilian main lines, and even more hilarious that they actually think they're being clever by doing it or posing any problems for black whatsoever out of the opening.

lol, i thought you were making some good points until you said what a primitive idea 2.c3 is.  2.c3 is super logical, looking for a d4 push to build a classical pawn center on d4 and e4.  2.c3 is also clever because it neutralizes many of the counteracting/asymmetrical ideas of black right out of the opening.  It is clever enough to have been used by Kasparov, Karpov, Anand and Karpov.  Just because something is 'common' doesn't mean it is bad.

P.S.  I don't really think c3 refutes the Sicilian, I just think it takes a lot of fun out of the opening for black.  So instead of a sharp counteracting game that black might hope for from the Sicilian, they are left with more like a French defence opening and often 2.c3 Sicilians can transpose into the French defence.

Absolutely not like a french, unless black chooses to play a not-very-common 2...e6 and 3...d5. The 2 most common replies to c3, Nf6 and d5, do not end up like french defenses whatsoever. I wouldn't say it exactly takes the fun out of the opening for black, but just gives completely different positions to the mainlines.

2.c3 Sicilian is a lot like the French, you have no idea what you are talking about, I have seen ...e6 and ...d5 a lot when playing 2.c3 as white

It is ONLY like a french in that SPECIFIC line which is not played often certainly at higher level and probably not that often at other levels too. I am a sicilian player. And I can assure you, Nf6 and d5 are NOTHING like french defences. Remind me who does not know what they are talking about?

Okay let me remind you: you don't know what you are talking about.  Get mad bro, you are still wrong Wink

chesshole

that is funny because the only point you made is that it is 'like a French' in one particular line.  No, son.  In that line it is a French.  In many other lines the structures resemble the French and use a lot of the same ideas.

you call me a troll then you say, 'let me assure you, it is nothing like french defences, you don't know what you are talking about, End of story'.  

LOL.  well let me assure you son, it is like the French defence.  You don't know what you are talking about.   End of story.  

Mainline_Novelty

I guess 1.e4 c5 2.c3 d5 3.ed Qxd5 vaguely resembles the 3.Nd2 c5 4.ed Qxd5 line in the French.

chesshole
UltraLaser wrote:
@chesshole: Please, entertain me by trying to reach these positions from 1.e4 e6 d4 d5 in a standard kind of french. As of course, as you said, these are exactly like french defences... right?
 
 
 
 



You will never find me saying 2.c3 variations are 'exactly like a French'  you brought up a line that did in fact transpose into a French defence.  I am done arguing with you troll, especially trolls that try to put words in my mouth.  For the last time, I play only 2.c3 as white against the Sicilian and I often transpose into the French or reach a French-type position.  Feel free to waste your time showing variations that don't end up with a black pawn on e6 and d5.

Like I said, I am done arguing with you troll.  If it is that important for you to be right, I will let you have the last word.  So please make your final reply, even though we both know you are wrong. I have a feeling your ego needs the last word Wink

AdorableMogwai
chesshole wrote

P.S.  I don't really think c3 refutes the Sicilian, I just think it takes a lot of fun out of the opening for black.  So instead of a sharp counteracting game that black might hope for from the Sicilian, they are left with more like a French defence opening and often 2.c3 Sicilians can transpose into the French defence.

The Alapin doesn't take any fun out of the opening for me. Playing 2...d5 and then recapturing with my queen is actually quite thrilling for me because in no other openings that I play do I get to bring my queen first. Here is the one exception where I can do that. It's also fun for me because as someone who strictly plays the Sicilian I've gotten somewhat familiar with the Alapin, and the more familiar with an opening I get, the more fun it is for me.

Lou-for-you

Sicilian can transpose into french, but i would not let it happen. My opinion is closer to ultralaser but i am a sicilian player like him. I do not play e4 but imagine that some players get dragged into french when white plays the alapin. French is the worst opening ever unless you know it very well. Chesshole has the experience when playing white and i can understand this when i see how many people get manipulated in the opening.

kalyanmanning23

2. c3 only transposes into a french if black allows it, and most sicilian players don't like transposing to the french.

I'd like to point out that the sicilian and the french are vastly different in the main line tactics and strategies, so most sicilian players at top levels, when facing 2. c3 do just about anything to avoid transposing into a french.

P.S. Even though I like playing both with and against the french, I have never played 2. c3 when faced with the sicilian - I find the main lines much more enjoyable.