I think the Nimzo Indian is actually hypermodern. Interestingly, the Nimzo Indian is one of the black responses to 1. d4 that Berliner does not claim to have refuted.
Lesson 4: Responses for black
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Also, the bogo-indian. I learnt both together; and in fact if white plays both Nf3 and Nc3 then they merge...
Botvinnik said iirc 'there is probably no refutation of the bogo-indian'.
Of course the bogoindian is not so attacking, but it gives black equality, imo.
Aug 10, 2008
0
#5
Just decided to see what this was about and it's quite instructive, just wanted to point out one or two things - I think Sharukin is right, the nimzo Indian is classed as hypermodern and also on the Queen's Gambit post, you suggest Qa4+ to retake the pawn, but I would suggest that e3 or e4 is better offering a discovered attack from the bishop and bringing out another central pawn.
1. d4 d5 2. c4 dxc4 3.Qa4+ Nc6 If 4. Qxc4 then d4 can also be taken keeping black a pawn up. White must further strengthen d4 before taking the pawn with e3 (Not Nf3 - Nxd4 Nxd4 Qxd4 or Nxd4 Qxc4 Nxf3 and black is up either way). With e3 you practically reach the other position, but I feel that the quick central development makes it very worthwhile and is a far simpler line, Qa4+ should be experimented with later.
Thank you for your posts.
About the Nimzo Indian I agree that it might be a hyper modern opening I just never have thought about it that way (it is a defence though and not an opening).
I did some extensive work on the queens gambit a few months ago but this lesson is not created to be extensive. I know that e3 or e4 will create a discovery but these moves are refuted now adays as is Qa4+ due to black's ideas b5, e5 and e6 which all take the dge off white's play. 3. Nf3 is the correct continuation.
mvh Fredrik
Whether white plays e4 or d4(I suggest d4) black can play d5 or c5(the pawn is poisoned against d4) but should stay away from e5. Knight moves are also playable, but I usually stay away from them on the first 3-5 moves.
imo 1.d4 Nf6 leads to beautiful games.
True(well, I've never seen it in real games but I'll take your word for it), but the knights are easily chased by pawns unless the pawns are blocked(usually by other pawns).
hey youve never seen a nimzoindian game? you must be joking!
Ok here is Saidy v Fischer 1960:
Aug 12, 2008
0
#11
srn347 wrote:
True(well, I've never seen it in real games but I'll take your word for it), but the knights are easily chased by pawns unless the pawns are blocked(usually by other pawns).
If black plays Nf6 against 1. d4 it is difficult to chase the knight with a pawn. If white plays 2. e4 instead of th usual 2. c4 then black can play d6 discouraging e5 and going into a Pirc. I doubt a d4 player is going to want`to go that way voluntarily.
Sharukin wrote:
srn347 wrote:
True(well, I've never seen it in real games but I'll take your word for it), but the knights are easily chased by pawns unless the pawns are blocked(usually by other pawns). If black plays Nf6 against 1. d4 it is difficult to chase the knight with a pawn. If white plays 2. e4 instead of th usual 2. c4 then black can play d6 discouraging e5 and going into a Pirc. I doubt a d4 player is going to want`to go that way voluntarily.
sorry, but if black white plays 2.e4 wouldn't you just take the pawn?
About the lesson, I think that there are some mistakes and there aren't explanations about the ideas of every opening. I also think that the french should have been included. In Nimzoindian white can also play 3.Nf3 or even 3.g3. I disagree with the statement that the queens gambit declined is more complicated than the slav. I also think what's mentioned in post #6 is not right as if the queen's gambit is accepted after 3.e3 b5 4.a4 c6 5.axb5 cxb5 6.Qf3 white wins a rook. The last mistake I think is that you only mention 2.Nf3 and 2.c3 for Sicilian while in fact white has more moves and you also say that c3 is the closed Sicilian in fact, it's 2.Nc3
It's nice to know that someone else hates the Sicilian.
I think it's important to point out that both the Sicilian and the Indian Defenses prevent white from establishing the ideal pawn center by targeting the square where white wishes to put his second pawn.
i think since this thread is for beginners as the creator said, so french defence - not really suitable for beginners i think. Except for the winawer variation!
Well, here is my comment in general terms.
To tip the balance (chess being dynamic and not static) Black oft times MUST scarifice a pawn to keep from being restricted in some openings - to open lines. The Two Knight's Defense would be a case in point. Generally, in the King's Pawn lines Black sacrifices a pawn. Piece sacrifices are to win, not get free. Of course, on the Qeenside we have the Benko Gambit! Dr. Tarrasch said that players afraid to have an isolated pawn should give up the game of chess. Apparently his Tarrasch Defense in the QGD was being criticized. There often comes a time in the game, as we all know, (even the late middle game) where Black has to give up something to get something. A player cannot hang on to every pawn as King Midas hung onto his gold. We just need to be careful of all unsound sacrifices (which is what chess anaysis is all about) Although Paul Morphy loved the pawn sacrifice for development with White, the pawn sacrifice was invented by the Blackside. That is why players on this forum are always talking about gambits and counter gambits, gambits and more counter gambits.
Getting back to Nimzovitch's play in the openings and his book My System, Black's SECOND RESOURCE is the pin straight out of the opening. BxN breaking up a pawn structure is good, and some times devastating in front of the King's castle. Even if one exchanges bishop for knight he has not sacrificed a pawn. In the French Defense and the Lasker Defense, a quick exchange of pieces can lighten the burden of the defense. Pins can also be annoying to White ( as we all are aware). White in the main line of the Ruy Lopez does not allow the Kingside pin of his knight. The Bogo-Indian mentioned here, can also cause the exchange of bisops, if White is willing. Black wants to free his game safely with exchanges. Not every Black counter gambit gives an advantage.
normajeanyates wrote:
i think since this thread is for beginners as the creator said, so french defence - not really suitable for beginners i think. Except for the winawer variation!
Yes, French is not for beginners, but Sicilian is really more difficult, and is included, and you can't understand the idea behind the caro-cann if you don't know the idea behind the french.
Aug 12, 2008
0
#18
kosmeg: sorry, but if black white plays 2.e4 wouldn't you just take the pawn?
Yes, I typed in haste and can now repent at leisure.
Kosmeg,
I actually suggested The Ninzo-Indian and the French Defense for beginners.
In the Nimzo-Indian Black is usually castled kingside in just four moves. Many beginners do not get castled soon enough. This way they have to. As for the French Defense the beginner needs to understand Blacks's games get cramped, and learn to manuver in tight positions. He will learn to castle Queenside. He can learn about the pawn thrust c5 to help free a position (played not only in the French). With any luck White's position will get over extended and lose a crucial pawn. Perhaps after the shooting is over the Black player will find he has a central pawns pawn roller to give him a good endgame...and just maybe he will learn to be more patient and stop being torn up in open KP games.
Thank you all for your posts!
About the french, I had in mind to include the french from the beginning but I simply forgot it. I will add it at once!
I think that all indian defences really are for somewhat more advanced players as they play on ideas that at first glance can seem hard to grasp. The french though I think is at least basic to know about. I excluded complicated openings like the reti opening (1. e4, Nf6) with purpose as they are far from basic. (I think kosmeg might have thought of the reti but delayed a move for white)
It is a too hard lesson to learn all the ideas behind all the common openings at once, therefor the lesson simply is made so that the student can learn the names of the openings and try to associate them with the moves.
Hope you enjoyed reading the forum.
mvh Fredrik
This is just like some of my other forums a private lesson, anyone is though welcome to attend the lesson and learn whatever they can from it. If anyone finds any mistakes, forgotten themes or general thoughts about the lesson is he or she welcome to make a post.
It is known that white will get an edge in most games due to the fact that he starts. As white starts it will for the most time mean that white will be the attacking force while black defends. The best chance for black to change this is through defending against white's attack and then counterattack. Most book openings thus focuses around this idea for black.
The idea of counterattack is to allow white an attack which black can defend against. When white has overextended his attack will black probably strike at his flanks and win material.
The Ruy Lopez is a common system for white that mostly give white an advantage. Many of the optional defences tries to stay out of this opening.The French Defence is an ancient defence that will create an obviously good and an obviously bad bishop, extensive bishop study is recommended.
The Caro-Kann defence was for a time my choice of opening as it is very slow and stable. It gives black great counterchances after the starting clashes.
The Sicilian Defence creates a very unbalanced position where white usually castle queenside and tries to get a passed pawn on the kingside while black castles kingside and tries to get a passed pawn on the queenside.
The queens gambit is a slow positional opening that white can chose to avoid all tactics around e4.
The Nimzo Indian is another powerful counte attack defence that gives black fine chances.I have decided to not include any hypermodern openings as they are generally more complicated than the standard ones I have mentioned and should not be included in a beginners course.
Please say what you think about the lesson in a post.
mvh Fredrik