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Avatar of Ilampozhil25

well, to master yes obviously it takes time

but to be able to play it not at all, that takes comparable amount of time to the other three

Avatar of 1Lindamea1
Ilampozhil25 написал:

"you" as in a general person

"e5 takes a lot of time to master"

this statement above is incorrect, and discourages beginners from playing e5

I personally think that beginners should never play e5. There are just too many tricks and traps for white. Of course it can be very fun if you learn some gambits like stafford or latvian(It's actually the most fun defence is you do this), but... I think scandi is the best thing a new player can play. It allows to not blunder the game from the beginning and improve in the middle and endgame. I could be wrong, of course.

Avatar of Ilampozhil25

never is too strong a word

Avatar of TheSonics

The trick is if you try to force an "open tactical game without (!) the need to study openings deeply and actually spend time understanding opening>middle games ideas", which involves pattern memorization at the very least if not line memorization which is debatebly benefitial for beginners at best...

what happens is you will either get bad positions, or actually (and what happens most often) is the opponent will understand what you are after and force a positional, closed game.

Conclusion:

Contrary to what you think: Maybe advise him to actually play the London or d3 Italian and improve his positional game, rather than looking for ways around that... Play 15+10 or 30 min games...

Positional just means tactics will occur later in the game - if he understands that - he might become very good..

Also it doesn't matter how much beginners study some opening - what they need is actually to understand you can't play the same moves against everything (Obvious? not to everybody) Just help him understand it's OK to memorize 1 move of each opening, rather than lines/deep ideas in any specific one.. that's a good start

Example:

1. e4

against: ..1. c6, d6, b6, g6, and e6, and Nc6 I go... 2.d4 grabbing the entire center.

against: ..1. Sicilian I go 2.c3... Alapin Sicilian, d4 at some point, normal development..

against ..1. e5 I go 2. Nf3 and go for Italian with d3 or if Black goes Petroff d4 preparing to push e4-e5 if takes...

against ..1. Nf6 I go 2.e5 attacking the Knight..

If you get surprised in the opening completely that means maybe opponent is playing some random stuff and maybe he's very good watch out..

This more "global" approach which may seem obvious to you isn't obvious to U800 beginners at all...

So rather than looking for "an opening" try to bring up his level in all openings... And perhaps show him some nice classic game in the King's Gambit to show how knowing an opening like a Master is a means to achieve your desired middle game (again, this very concept of why we select openings seems obvious to you but to beginners it's not so obvious... To them it may seem like an annoying memory contest)

But basically studying a single/very few specific openings alot or playing a rich opening like the Pirc/KID as a system won't help him that much...

And also... for beginners it's not so important.. He could just improve his already strong side (tactics and endgames) by doing 20 mins of tactics a day and studying a master game/endgames every other day.. having this imbalance in your play is essentially good...

Avatar of Cobra2721

Players of his or your level dont need openings

Avatar of Ilampozhil25

to play a game of chess, you must play the first moves

the first moves are called as the opening

thus, by the weirdest logic ever, the opening is required for the game to even start! 

(slight joke here)

Avatar of Cobra2721

You dont need to learn openings is what I said

Avatar of Ilampozhil25

i know that

people apparently dont get humour here i guess..

Avatar of 1Lindamea1
cogadhtintreach написал:

Players of his or your level dont need openings

I heard this statement a lot of times, but still can't understand why. Why risk getting destroyed in first couple moves if you can do it yourself by memorising some lines?

Avatar of Cobra2721
lassus_dinnao wrote:
cogadhtintreach написал:

Players of his or your level dont need openings

I heard this statement a lot of times, but still can't understand why. Why risk getting destroyed in first couple moves if you can do it yourself by memorising some lines?

Cos nobody of ur level can capitalise, they arent good enough. Ur level still blunder pieces

Avatar of RivertonKnight

A person might see combinations easier than understanding positional aspects of the game, but when rated 1000 everything needs improvement. Good tactics are found from good positions generally and not the other way around. Understanding why a move is played instead of merely just playing it because it appears good goes along way.

Avatar of 1Lindamea1
cogadhtintreach написал:
lassus_dinnao wrote:
cogadhtintreach написал:

Players of his or your level dont need openings

I heard this statement a lot of times, but still can't understand why. Why risk getting destroyed in first couple moves if you can do it yourself by memorising some lines?

Cos nobody of ur level can capitalise, they arent good enough. Ur level still blunder pieces

But at 1000 openings start to shine. If you know a good opening you can create a "buffer zone" advantage on move 10 which helps you in the middle and endgame. If you blunder something, you don't lose, you just drop to equality or even a slight advantage.

Avatar of RivertonKnight

Pick some openings even if it is the KIA and KID and run with them create your path and understand why the move is being made, I still win with the Englund Gambit at 1900 level as black, because I understand it better. I agree with having a base point to work from, but the opening is not going to solve all the issues of playing strength

Avatar of Ethan_Brollier
lassus_dinnao wrote:
Ilampozhil25 написал:

*inhales extremely deeply*

lets say black plays the caro

white has 10 or so responses, black must study all of them

but white should only study one (the one they play)

etc etc

so why is chess not just horrible to study as black?

coz white doesnt just need one line in e4 e5 (first off, he needs like 4 to 5 here even)

he needs some lines for the sicilian... caro... french... dot dot dot

and btw, if you believe what youre saying

then every black opening is trash

I play the caro and I studied only two lines: the botvinnik-carls and the tarkatower. Every other line is just opening principles. In the e5 I had to study hungarian(1 line), morphy defence(2 line) Nf3 scotch(3 line), Vukovic(4 line), kings gambit(5 line), danish gambit(6 line) and maybe anti-wayward queen is a seventh line. e5 has more theory than any other black's defence except sicilian. And playing with white is extremely easy. Scandinavian doesn't need any theory to play against, both french and caro can be transposed into pseudo scandi by steiner and accelerated panov, the smith-morra against sicilian is like 5 mins to learn.

How the hell are you worried about all that playing e5 and then only playing two responses in the Caro-Kann? You have to be worried about the Advance, Mainline, Exchange, Two Knights, Panov, Accelerated Panov Toikannen Gambit, Fantasy, Breyer, Nf3 Breyer, Breyer ICBM, and whatever nonsense the lower level players throw at you. 
Meanwhile in the e5, first of all you could just pick up the Petrov or even the Philidor against 2. Nf3 and then all you have to be really worried about is the Bishop’s Opening. Even if you don’t do that though just learn the Giuoco Pianissimo, the Malaniuk Scotch, and the Berlin Spanish and you’ll be fine with very little theory but a great position. Against VG, KG, and DG just learn the d5 declined variations. In Vienna and Danish it’s literally the best way to play as Black, and in the King’s it’s the best countergambit and a solid way to play. e5 at lower levels is really not that hard to play as Black.

Avatar of 1Lindamea1
Ethan_Brollier написал:
lassus_dinnao wrote:
Ilampozhil25 написал:

*inhales extremely deeply*

lets say black plays the caro

white has 10 or so responses, black must study all of them

but white should only study one (the one they play)

etc etc

so why is chess not just horrible to study as black?

coz white doesnt just need one line in e4 e5 (first off, he needs like 4 to 5 here even)

he needs some lines for the sicilian... caro... french... dot dot dot

and btw, if you believe what youre saying

then every black opening is trash

I play the caro and I studied only two lines: the botvinnik-carls and the tarkatower. Every other line is just opening principles. In the e5 I had to study hungarian(1 line), morphy defence(2 line) Nf3 scotch(3 line), Vukovic(4 line), kings gambit(5 line), danish gambit(6 line) and maybe anti-wayward queen is a seventh line. e5 has more theory than any other black's defence except sicilian. And playing with white is extremely easy. Scandinavian doesn't need any theory to play against, both french and caro can be transposed into pseudo scandi by steiner and accelerated panov, the smith-morra against sicilian is like 5 mins to learn.

How the hell are you worried about all that playing e5 and then only playing two responses in the Caro-Kann? You have to be worried about the Advance, Mainline, Exchange, Two Knights, Panov, Accelerated Panov Toikannen Gambit, Fantasy, Breyer, Nf3 Breyer, Breyer ICBM, and whatever nonsense the lower level players throw at you. 
Meanwhile in the e5, first of all you could just pick up the Petrov or even the Philidor against 2. Nf3 and then all you have to be really worried about is the Bishop’s Opening. Even if you don’t do that though just learn the Giuoco Pianissimo, the Malaniuk Scotch, and the Berlin Spanish and you’ll be fine with very little theory but a great position. Against VG, KG, and DG just learn the d5 declined variations. In Vienna and Danish it’s literally the best way to play as Black, and in the King’s it’s the best countergambit and a solid way to play. e5 at lower levels is really not that hard to play as Black.

Can you tell more about d5 against danish please?

Avatar of RivertonKnight

You make 1 e4 e5 sound so easy and rewarding to play with from the Black side tohappy.png

Avatar of Ethan_Brollier
lassus_dinnao wrote:
Ethan_Brollier написал:
lassus_dinnao wrote:
Ilampozhil25 написал:

*inhales extremely deeply*

lets say black plays the caro

white has 10 or so responses, black must study all of them

but white should only study one (the one they play)

etc etc

so why is chess not just horrible to study as black?

coz white doesnt just need one line in e4 e5 (first off, he needs like 4 to 5 here even)

he needs some lines for the sicilian... caro... french... dot dot dot

and btw, if you believe what youre saying

then every black opening is trash

I play the caro and I studied only two lines: the botvinnik-carls and the tarkatower. Every other line is just opening principles. In the e5 I had to study hungarian(1 line), morphy defence(2 line) Nf3 scotch(3 line), Vukovic(4 line), kings gambit(5 line), danish gambit(6 line) and maybe anti-wayward queen is a seventh line. e5 has more theory than any other black's defence except sicilian. And playing with white is extremely easy. Scandinavian doesn't need any theory to play against, both french and caro can be transposed into pseudo scandi by steiner and accelerated panov, the smith-morra against sicilian is like 5 mins to learn.

How the hell are you worried about all that playing e5 and then only playing two responses in the Caro-Kann? You have to be worried about the Advance, Mainline, Exchange, Two Knights, Panov, Accelerated Panov Toikannen Gambit, Fantasy, Breyer, Nf3 Breyer, Breyer ICBM, and whatever nonsense the lower level players throw at you. 
Meanwhile in the e5, first of all you could just pick up the Petrov or even the Philidor against 2. Nf3 and then all you have to be really worried about is the Bishop’s Opening. Even if you don’t do that though just learn the Giuoco Pianissimo, the Malaniuk Scotch, and the Berlin Spanish and you’ll be fine with very little theory but a great position. Against VG, KG, and DG just learn the d5 declined variations. In Vienna and Danish it’s literally the best way to play as Black, and in the King’s it’s the best countergambit and a solid way to play. e5 at lower levels is really not that hard to play as Black.

Can you tell more about d5 against danish please?

I mean what is there to tell? It’s pretty simple, you just play normal Scandi stuff except there aren’t as many center pawns so Black is doing better than usual.

Avatar of Refrigerator321

Just play the Petrov bro

It's boring, but it's simple and you don't really need to learn anything aside from the Steinitz attack, the main line, and the Cozio, all of which don't take too much time to study

Avatar of Refrigerator321

Also sometimes you can get aggressive

Avatar of PineappleBird
lassus_dinnao wrote:
cogadhtintreach написал:

Players of his or your level dont need openings

I heard this statement a lot of times, but still can't understand why. Why risk getting destroyed in first couple moves if you can do it yourself by memorising some lines?

Because if you just put most of your study time on openings you will reach a level - say 1400 for example... And then you will be +4 out of the opening and blunder it away 80% of the time.

That is a bad feeling... Because +4 out of the opening should translate to maybe 80% win rate, not 20% win rate... But if your opponents have better middle game skill and endgame skill than you - the game will be decided by them.

Also some opening study can be deep... Chessable (memorizing lines) is aimed at 2000+ players mostly... As a beginner/intermediate you need to work on understanding opening ideas and goals, exploring middle game patterns that arise from this opening- through analysis of your own slow games... from "just memorizing a couple of moves" mostly you get from that is reach positions that you are better but can't actually handle... Or a desire to memorize more and more moves to have that fake feeling of security across more of your repertoire...