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Mastering the Ruy Lopez
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pfren wrote:
Fixing_A_Hole έγραψε:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
Open Ruy is certainly weak.
From waht I know, the Archangelsk is bad too.
The Marshall might barely hold in a range of limited lines, but will lose in most.
Wrong on all three points.
That's because he did not have a fourth point.
Here is a game I finished recently, being white in a critical line of the Arkhangelsk. It's very sharp (9...h6 is safer than 9...0-0), but at a high level it can be archived as a draw.
The computer says in the final position that white is winning, which is not true, of course. Actually ALL the moves in that game after 9...0-0 are optimal, and have been played before!
How does black hold the final position? I'm embarrassed to say I don't see it. After just a couple minutes looking on my phone, but still. Thanks.
DeirdreSkye wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
Some might more or less equalise at move 60 or so, which is mcuh longer than move 25.
Open Ruy is certainly weak.
From waht I know, the Archangelsk is bad too.
The Marshall might barely hold in a range of limited lines, but will lose in most.
Fischer has proven that many times.
The 2 reasons why top players would more often choose these systems is:
- the offer the possibility for fixed setups, which GMs can prepare in advance
- they offer good fighting chances, and many like to play for a win
So Black equalises at move 60 in Ruy Lopez.And how do you know that?You know all the line till move 60?
Archangelsk bad . open Ruy weak and Marshal barely hold.And why Aronian keeps playing it?He doesn't know that?Or you understand Marshall better than Aronian.
I made the mistake to believe that I was talking with a knowledgeable person but you really have no idea what you are talking about.You did well not to abandon your diplomatic carreer for chess.You would starve to death.
It is difficult to discuss with a person who reads a very simple information and states precisely the
opposite of what is written.
Aronyan is some 500 elo weaker than modern topn engines, and modern top engines are
some 2000 elo weaker than the perfect chess player or even more, so of course, Aronyan and all the other current top GMs are mostly wrong on a wide range of things.
And of course, for the very same reason, and also due to the fact that the opening stage is the most complex of all and will be solved last, most opening theory currently is simply wrong.
PS. Did I say something personal? You attack me personally.
If you can not discuss as an educated person on substance, then just don't.
The discussion gets ugly again, but it was not me to pervert it.
pfren wrote:
Fixing_A_Hole έγραψε:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
Open Ruy is certainly weak.
From waht I know, the Archangelsk is bad too.
The Marshall might barely hold in a range of limited lines, but will lose in most.
Wrong on all three points.
That's because he did not have a fourth point.
Here is a game I finished recently, being white in a critical line of the Arkhangelsk. It's very sharp (9...h6 is safer than 9...0-0), but at a high level it can be archived as a draw.
The computer says in the final position that white is winning, which is not true, of course. Actually ALL the moves in that game after 9...0-0 are optimal, and have been played before!
this is hopeless.
endgames are easier to play than having good opening understanding.
unless there is some miraculous draw with wrong bishop a pawn after a4-a3, or another miraculous KP vs K ending, with a pawn and shouldered white king, but that could be seen only after some analysis.
In any case, white got tremendous advantage, so it is not very much to the point if a draw could be achieved by miracle.
chuddog έγραψε:
How does black hold the final position? I'm embarrassed to say I don't see it. After just a couple minutes looking on my phone, but still. Thanks.
OK. I attach the initial game. OTB GM Sasikiran is playing white, and black is an Estonian correspondence SM. Black's drawing plan is quite clear.
I entered the whole thing because I thought it was very unlikely white not having an improvement over the game, but in due course I could not find anything that would avoid a draw.
Incredible, isn't it?
And I have already said that Black can avoid this madness by playing 10...h6 instead of castling.
52. f4 is premature, as the pawn on f4 is closer to attack, better stay on f2 for the moment.
What if 52. Ke4 Ke6 53. Kd4 instead?
Again, no time to analyse that, just a suggestion.
Nov 2, 2017
0
#49
I guess u will have to push the f pawn at some point, otherwise black will be able to play Ke8/Kd7 and free the rook via a8/a6. And when white pushes the f pawn, black will push the d pawn to exchange it for the f pawn and sac the rook on c7. Beautiful way to hold this.
we need concrete lines here: every single tempo, every single opposition, every single promotion with check matters.
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov έγραψε:
52. f4 is premature, as the pawn on f4 is closer to attack, better stay on f2 for the moment.
What if 52. Ke4 Ke6 53. Kd4 instead?
Again, no time to analyse that, just a suggestion.
After these moves Black simply plays 53...Kd7, when his rook is freed, and in some lines he can even take the c7 pawn. It seems that white has to settle for a draw with 54.f4 Rxc7 etc.
If there is something for white, it is way before this point. I could not find something working.
What is the total number of variations of the Ruy Lopez
pfren wrote:
chuddog έγραψε:
How does black hold the final position? I'm embarrassed to say I don't see it. After just a couple minutes looking on my phone, but still. Thanks.
OK. I attach the initial game. OTB GM Sasikiran is playing white, and black is an Estonian correspondence SM. Black's drawing plan is quite clear.
I entered the whole thing because I thought it was very unlikely white not having an improvement over the game, but in due course I could not find anything that would avoid a draw.
Incredible, isn't it?
And I have already said that Black can avoid this madness by playing 10...h6 instead of castling.
Ah, of course, the bishop is the wrong color. I can't believe I missed that. Thank you for answering.
pfren wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov έγραψε:
52. f4 is premature, as the pawn on f4 is closer to attack, better stay on f2 for the moment.
What if 52. Ke4 Ke6 53. Kd4 instead?
Again, no time to analyse that, just a suggestion.
After these moves Black simply plays 53...Kd7, when his rook is freed, and in some lines he can even take the c7 pawn. It seems that white has to settle for a draw with 54.f4 Rxc7 etc.
If there is something for white, it is way before this point. I could not find something working.
This loses: 54. Kd5(and not f4) Rc7 55. Bc7 Kc7 56. Ke6 Kc6 57. f4 d5(Kc5 transposes) 58. Ke5 Kc5(now the pawn will promote with check on f8) 59. f5 d4 60. f6 d3 61. f7 d2 62. f8Q check and white wins
54...Ra8 instead(to go to a6) is an alternative that needs deeper calculations.
White has however another strong move, 54. Kc4, and then Kb5, picking up at least one of black's 2 a pawns(maybe even both) and still managing to hold the d pawn.
Black is on the brink of a loss in all those lines, whether some miracle saves the game requires deep analysis or switching Stockfish for at least 10 minutes.
Anyway, this is tight-rope walking on the part of black.
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov έγραψε:
pfren wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov έγραψε:
52. f4 is premature, as the pawn on f4 is closer to attack, better stay on f2 for the moment.
What if 52. Ke4 Ke6 53. Kd4 instead?
Again, no time to analyse that, just a suggestion.
After these moves Black simply plays 53...Kd7, when his rook is freed, and in some lines he can even take the c7 pawn. It seems that white has to settle for a draw with 54.f4 Rxc7 etc.
If there is something for white, it is way before this point. I could not find something working.
This loses: 54. Kd5(and not f4) Rc7 55. Bc7 Kc7 56. Ke6 Kc6 57. f4 d5(Kc5 transposes) 58. Ke5 Kc5(now the pawn will promote with check on f8) 59. f5 d4 60. f6 d3 61. f7 d2 62. f8Q check and white wins
54...Ra8 instead(to go to a6) is an alternative that needs deeper calculations.
White has however another strong move, 54. Kc4, and then Kb5, picking up at least one of black's 2 a pawns(maybe even both) and still managing to hold the d pawn.
Black is on the brink of a loss in all those lines, whether some miracle saves the game requires deep analysis or switching Stockfish for at least 10 minutes.
Anyway, this is tight-rope walking on the part of black.
54.Kd5?? Ra8 loses indeed... for white.
pfren wrote:
Here is a game I finished recently, being white in a critical line of the Arkhangelsk. It's very sharp (9...h6 is safer than 9...0-0), but at a high level it can be archived as a draw.
The computer says in the final position that white is winning, which is not true, of course. Actually ALL the moves in that game after 9...0-0 are optimal, and have been played before!
Isn't Whites best chance play for an advantage to capture on f6 after 9...h6 and follow with Bd5! when the simplification on the Queenside leaves Black with backward pawns and not clear plan how to generate counterplay?
Bishop_g5 έγραψε:
pfren wrote:
Here is a game I finished recently, being white in a critical line of the Arkhangelsk. It's very sharp (9...h6 is safer than 9...0-0), but at a high level it can be archived as a draw.
The computer says in the final position that white is winning, which is not true, of course. Actually ALL the moves in that game after 9...0-0 are optimal, and have been played before!
Isn't Whites best chance play for an advantage to capture on f6 after 9...h6 and follow with Bd5! when the simplification on the Queenside leaves Black with backward pawns and not clear plan how to generate counterplay?
I don't get you.
9...h6 10.Bc1xf6 is an illegal move, isn't it?
Do you mean 9.a4 0-0 10.d4 Bb6 11.Bg5 h6 12.Bxf6?
pfren wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov έγραψε:
pfren wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov έγραψε:
52. f4 is premature, as the pawn on f4 is closer to attack, better stay on f2 for the moment.
What if 52. Ke4 Ke6 53. Kd4 instead?
Again, no time to analyse that, just a suggestion.
After these moves Black simply plays 53...Kd7, when his rook is freed, and in some lines he can even take the c7 pawn. It seems that white has to settle for a draw with 54.f4 Rxc7 etc.
If there is something for white, it is way before this point. I could not find something working.
This loses: 54. Kd5(and not f4) Rc7 55. Bc7 Kc7 56. Ke6 Kc6 57. f4 d5(Kc5 transposes) 58. Ke5 Kc5(now the pawn will promote with check on f8) 59. f5 d4 60. f6 d3 61. f7 d2 62. f8Q check and white wins
54...Ra8 instead(to go to a6) is an alternative that needs deeper calculations.
White has however another strong move, 54. Kc4, and then Kb5, picking up at least one of black's 2 a pawns(maybe even both) and still managing to hold the d pawn.
Black is on the brink of a loss in all those lines, whether some miracle saves the game requires deep analysis or switching Stockfish for at least 10 minutes.
Anyway, this is tight-rope walking on the part of black.
54.Kd5?? Ra8 loses indeed... for white.
You suggested black could take on c7, that is why my Kd5 line.
Because of Ra8, however, which requires calculation, my preferred move would be
Kc4, as I pointed out, and then one black pawn falls, while the rook is still unactive.
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov έγραψε:
You suggested black could take on c7, that is why my Kd5 line.
Because of Ra8, however, which requires calculation, my preferred move would be
Kc4, as I pointed out, and then one black pawn falls, while the rook is still unactive.
I suggested 54...Rxc7 after 54.f4 (taking at d8 looks OK, too).
Just a silly question: 54.Kd5? Ra8 55.Kc4 makes no sense. Why not 54.Kc4 at once? It still looks bad after 54...Ra8, but does not waste a move.
Anyway, your 55.Kc4 loses to 55...Ra7 with Rb7 to follow.
What concerns where white could have played better, I guess both players played weak and
better moves could be found on almost every move.
For example, on move 28, instead of 28. h4, white could have played 28. Qh5 Qh7 29. Qg4 Qg6 30. Qh4 Qh7 31. Qa4, picking up a pawn for free.
This might have been sufficient for an easier win.
Open Ruy is certainly weak.
From waht I know, the Archangelsk is bad too.
The Marshall might barely hold in a range of limited lines, but will lose in most.
Wrong on all three points.
That's because he did not have a fourth point.
Here is a game I finished recently, being white in a critical line of the Arkhangelsk. It's very sharp (9...h6 is safer than 9...0-0), but at a high level it can be archived as a draw.
The computer says in the final position that white is winning, which is not true, of course. Actually ALL the moves in that game after 9...0-0 are optimal, and have been played before!