Opening Creation - Novelties + Analysis

Well since 9. ... Bf6 has been the main line for many years. Why dont you humor me with some variations

Main line? This opening is hardly ever played.

You must be making a mistake. 

On move 9 the bishop has to be taken and there is no bishop that can move to f6.

Yereslov, the moller attack is hardly ever played today, but has been analyzed to death in the first half of the century, and was very popular in steinitz's time. So yes, definitely there is a main line (with many branches going beyond move 20) and tons of theory.

9...Bf6 and 9...Ne5 are both perfectly ok and should lead to a somewhat better game for black. I don't think there's a definite agreement on which one is better. 9...Bf6 is maybe a bit toughter to handle, the theory is very extensive and white has some practical chances since he is usually just going all-out on the kingside (bayonet attacks with g4 and Nxh7  sacs are often on the menu).

Are we talking about my opening?

I'm talking about the line metaknight posted (9.d5 in the greco variation, known as the moller attack). moonnie certainly replyed to him (saying that Bf6 instead of Ne5 is another good move, which is true) and you replyed to moonnie, so I assumed that was the line under discussion. Looks like you misinterpreted moonnie's remark as directed toward you variation.

A matter of taste i suppose, i don't like white's position at all. Qh5 is easily stopped with a timely g6, and black is just a few moves away from O-O-O when white's compensation for the pawn is rather hard to see. 

Did you computer check this?

It looks bad from black's side.

There are mainlines for everything. Some just aren't that good.

With white having a 0.50- advantage I doubt black can play a decent game. 

Black really hasn't gained anything. 

I prefer 9.Ne5 instead.

yereslov, it's a long standing main line (i have the position after move 17 in a 40 years book on my desk), it has no doubt been computer checked countless times in the past. It's pretty good for black.

Metaknight, I pretty much agree, i don't think it's lost or very bad for white, just black is a bit better as long as he doesn't blunder to some simple tactic. I attended a lecture where a fide master was very dismissive about white's chances in this line, but i'm sure it's ok for speed chess among players like me and you. Sometimes I play the Greco myself in 10 minutes games, but luckily my opponents always deviated early or entered the older lines where black allows the sac on h7. Even there white is praying for a perpetual with correct play, but it's tricky to handle black's position with a few minutes on the clock.

EDIT:surprised to see the computer evaluation you posted. Fritz 13 gives -0,50 or something if i remember correctly.

Black is nowhere near better off. After having the engines play a little duel, black lost completely. 

What line are you talking about?

A rapid engine match in nothing against the evaluation of several pro players during dozens of years. I'm also surprised since all the engines i have access to say that black is better.

From a positional point of view, black has always been supposed to be better since he has an easy plan (c6-queen somewhere-o-o-o) after which he is left with a completely safe king, an extra pawn and most importantly white's seemingly active heavy pieces have no scope since the only open file has been closed by black's countersac. the only favourable imbaòance for white is the passed pawn, but completely blockaded and isolated as it is it's a weakness as much as a strenght. Summing it up, unless white finds a tactical blow pretty quickly he is going to be much worse. 

That said, i would welcome improvements for white in this line since sometimes i play it. Can you please post some lines you think good for white?

How in the world is he worse?

A good engine at max power shows that white has a superior position.

Great. First the Parham, then the...whatever this is. Yereslov, which engine were you using?  

No opening is capable of losing from the first move.

The Parham is terrible, but it's impossible to punish.

Rybka 4 and Fritz (something).

I also use Houdini and Stockfish.

The variation just smells bad for white for the already listed reasons. Can you please provide a variation to support your claims? Otherwise the discussion will not move forward.

My own variation.

It turns out this "Yereslov Variation" already has a name: The Steinitz-Sveshnikov Variation.

http://www.kenilworthchessclub.org/games/java/2008/steinitz-sveshnikov.htm As you'll see, Black does best when he drops the bishop back to b6 on move 8.

I must complement you on your taste: I've tried this many times online - I do ok with it, especially if Black doesn't know book and plays something other than 6...d5.  I've only played it once over the board, a draw at a team event vs. a master last year.  He checked 8...Bb4+ and on 9.Bd2 only then ...Be7.  It's unusual but after I analyzed the game I concluded it's also a good line.

Bb4 eventually has to move back to e7.