Opening Theory Is Pointless For Most People That Will Ever Play. Why Bother?

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Avatar of IMKeto
chesster3145 wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:

Above tactic is extremely obvious, should be seen in less than a second.

Of course, it is fully meaningless to study any theory at all. Simply because

most of the state-of-the-art theory is wrong. For example, modern theory(top GMs included)

still don't know that the Dutch is almost unplayable, because after 1.d4 f5, white has 2. d5!,

with quite some advantage.

Similarly, in the English Opening, after 1.c4 e5 2. Nc3 Nf6, white gets big advanatge with

3. e4!  You know what, modern theoretical handbooks even don't mention this strong move.

They would prefer the much weaker 3. e3, which exhibits very good probabilities of getting an inferior or even lost game, if black manages to push e5-e4(getting a very favourable structure similar to the

French Winawer with reversed colours).

 

State-of-the-art theory 50 years ago was quite different from what it is now. And state-of-the-art theory 50 years from now will also be quite different.

 

So that, of course, studying theory is a complete waste of time.

I would analyse games(including openings) with Stockfish instead.

Hello, Ray Gordon...

Thats who i initially thought it was too.  But i do not think it is Ray Gordon.  Now if this person starts posting "annonymous" wins from other unnamed sites, then we will know.

Avatar of WalangAlam

 

 

In most cases the stronger player always wins the game either between amateurs or between chess professionals. In the games between amateurs the stronger player usually wins with tactics resulting from a good position or through precise calculation or a blunder by his opponent or a combination of factors. Now between professionals the stronger player usually wins because of good endgame skills or a better position in the endgame that was a result of a good middlegame decision or a blunder from his opponent due to pressure or time trouble or a combination of other factors.

Now where does opening theory factors in all of these? Like it or not chess players have favorite openings and most have limited opening repertoire. In tournaments where players usually know each other preparing against an opponent is much easier when you can predict his choice of variations (which is not that many) as against a player with an unusually broad opening repertoire. It is not an uncommon knowledge for instance that an attacking tactical player usually is drawn into a positional middlegame where his opponent knows what to do. Knowledge in opening theory plus understanding will lead to a broad opening repertoire which will make it more difficult for your opponent to prepare against you in future tournaments or games.

By the way saying that opening theory is garbage because the old theory is refuted by the latest chess engines is just bullshit. Opening preparation with chess engines started with Kasparov. I remember Kramnik calling the computer his silicon friend. They used fritz back then, now its Stockfish or Komodo. If you are building your opening repertoire with the aid of chess engines then you are in the modern era of opening theory, but still in the realm of opening theory.

Avatar of Optimissed

I thought 3.e4 was interesting but that c4 was completely wrong. White should play with his pieces at first ... Nc3, Bc4. Nge2, 0-0 and should win back the pawn with advantage. c4 is mixing systems.

Avatar of pawn8888

I guess that they call it 'theory' because a player never knows what move his opponent is going to make unless it is forced. Studying moves made by GM's seems useless for the same reason. How many times has someone played a lower-ranked player thinking 'this should be easy', then their opponent comes up with an with an unexpected move that turns out to be a great move, with the good player finding out his big plans are in ruins. It's probably happened to plenty of GM's as well.     

Avatar of IMKeto
JMurakami wrote:

Here's another example. I had this game against Sweden FM Sigur and shows the clash of ideas during the opening, and how the outcome leads to favorable tactical situations later on. Of course the game has several inaccuracies; nonetheless it shows the roles of the opening, pawn structures and piece disposition and activity in the evolution of tactics during the game.

 

 

I really enjoy the way you comment on games.  It makes things clear, and you explain ideas very well.

Avatar of SmyslovFan

JMurakami, your latest example is interesting, but has virtually no bearing at all on the experience of "most" players. Most players have no clue whether the moves you made were part of opening theory or not. 

The "clash of ideas in the opening" is one of my favorite themes in my own games, but it just doesn't occur in the games of players rated U1200 here. The average blitz rating on chess.com is 1047. The vast majority of players do not see a clash of ideas in the opening, they see a tactical shot that wins a piece. Or they don't. 

 

Your posts are very interesting, but they don't address the premise of this thread, which is that most players, that is those rated U1200 here, simply don't need to study the openings in the depth that you do.

I can show some great games that I have played against titled players too (wins and losses). But that doesn't really address the reality for most players.

Avatar of Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
Optimissed wrote:

I thought 3.e4 was interesting but that c4 was completely wrong. White should play with his pieces at first ... Nc3, Bc4. Nge2, 0-0 and should win back the pawn with advantage. c4 is mixing systems.

3. e4 is an incorrigible mistake.

White cedes the center for nothing.

After 4, Nc3(instead of c4) Nf6 5. Bc4 cd5 6. Nd5 e6 7. Nf6(otherwise d5) Qf6 and then d7-d5,

white is already lost because of the powerful black center.

The idea of 2.d5 is to keep the pawn on d5 to restrict the enemy pieces, so 3.c4 was necessary.

 

Avatar of Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
JMurakami wrote:

Here's another example. I had this game against Sweden FM Sigur and shows the clash of ideas during the opening, and how the outcome leads to favorable tactical situations later on. Of course the game has several inaccuracies; nonetheless it shows the roles of the opening, pawn structures and piece disposition and activity in the evolution of tactics during the game.

 

 Good game.

I presume after g3 and Bg2 white is already lost.

 

Avatar of kindaspongey
SmyslovFan wrote:

JMurakami, ... Your posts ... don't address the premise of this thread, which is that most players, that is those rated U1200 here, simply don't need to study the openings in the depth that you do. ...

Did it say "U1200" in the first post or "U2000"?

Part of the reply in post #2: "... Overall, I would advise most players to stick to a fairly limited range of openings, and not to worry about learning too much by heart. ..." - FM Steve Giddins (2008)

Where has it been advocated that U1200 players study openings in the depth that JMurakami does?

Avatar of kindaspongey

"... U2000 ..." - #3   "... to expert level ..." - #50   "... became expert level ..." - #121   "... Expert level players ..." - #122   "... under 2000 ..." - #147   "... under 2000 ..." - #148   "... for amateurs." - #193   "... U2000 ..." - #206   "... the 2000 barrier ..." - #207   "... U2000 ..." - #210   "... U2000 ..." - #213   "... with amateurs ..." - #227   "... U2000 ..." - #259   "... U2000 ..." - #265   "... U2000 ..." - #397   "... U2000 ..." - #398   "... U2000 ..." - #413 "... U2000s ..." - #522   "... CLASS PLAYERS ..." - #524   "... U2000 ..." - #544   "... This thread is about chess U2000 being ..." - #550

Avatar of kindaspongey

I am sorry if my post #634 caused any confusion. I was just trying to give some indication about why there have been posts that did not take this as a thread about chess U1200.

Avatar of SmyslovFan

Kindaspongey has a habit of asking questions that appear to be declarative statements. But when challenged, he says it's just a question.

 

The topic of conversation is "most people".  He's right, "most people" will never break 2000 on this site. He would also be right to say that most people will never break 1500 on this site. He would even be right if he said that "most people are not, and never have been over 1200 on this site".

 

The topic isn't the U2000 crowd, the topic is "most people".

Avatar of IMKeto
SmyslovFan wrote:

Kindaspongey has a habit of asking questions that appear to be declarative statements. But when challenged, he says it's just a question.

 

The topic of conversation is "most people".  He's right, "most people" will never break 2000 on this site. He would also be right to say that most people will never break 1500 on this site. He would even be right if he said that "most people are not, and never have been over 1200 on this site".

 

The topic isn't the U2000 crowd, the topic is "most people".

http://www.grammar-monster.com/glossary/declarative_sentence.htm

Avatar of SmyslovFan

Yes, FisheyedFools, a declarative sentence is one that appears to give a clear statement. The way kindaspongey writes his "questions" is as declarative sentences, even though he ends them with "?".  He hides behind quotes and interrogative grammar, always attacking, but when challenged, points out that kindaspongey never actually made any claims. He either asked a question or gave a quote. 

 

If you read kindaspongey's latest posts, you will rightly conclude that he believes the topic of the the thread is "U2000" players. But if you read his comments carefully, he himself does not actually say that. 

 

EDIT Added: Kindaspongey uses a special kind of rhetorical question that is a soft declarative statement. But he acts in bad faith. If he is challenged, he retreats and claims he was just asking a question.

This thread is about "most people". Most people who play here will never break 1200 in blitz on this site.

Avatar of IMKeto
SmyslovFan wrote:

Yes, FisheyedFools, a declarative sentence is one that appears to give a clear statement. The way kindaspongey writes his "questions" is as declarative sentences, even though he ends them with "?".  He hides behind quotes and interrogative grammar, always attacking, but when challenged, points out that kindaspongey never actually made any claims. He either asked a question or gave a quote. 

 

If you read kindaspongey's latest posts, you will rightly conclude that he believes the topic of the the thread is "U2000" players. But if you read his comments carefully, he himself does not actually say that. 

 

EDIT Added: Kindaspongey uses a special kind of rhetorical question that is a soft declarative statement. But he acts in bad faith. If he is challenged, he retreats and claims he was just asking a question.

This thread is about "most people". Most people who play here will never break 1200 in blitz on this site.

I quit reading his quotes a long time ago.  Now if he actually contributed something of substance, i might be inclined to read what he posts.

Avatar of kindaspongey
SmyslovFan wrote:

Kindaspongey has a habit of asking questions that appear to be declarative statements. But when challenged, he says it's just a question. ...

Does SmyslovFan have an example?

Avatar of kindaspongey
SmyslovFan wrote:

Kindaspongey ...  He's right, "most people" will never break 2000 on this site. ...

Not something I wrote. Also, not something I asked about.

Avatar of kindaspongey
SmyslovFan wrote:

... The topic of conversation is "most people". ...

"... U2000 ..." - #1   "... U2000 ..." - #3   "... to expert level ..." - #50   "... became expert level ..." - #121   "... Expert level players ..." - #122   "... under 2000 ..." - #147   "... under 2000 ..." - #148   "... for amateurs." - #193   "... U2000 ..." - #206   "... the 2000 barrier ..." - #207   "... U2000 ..." - #210   "... U2000 ..." - #213   "... with amateurs ..." - #227   "... U2000 ..." - #259   "... U2000 ..." - #265   "... U2000 ..." - #397   "... U2000 ..." - #398   "... U2000 ..." - #413   "... U2000s ..." - #522   "... CLASS PLAYERS ..." - #524   "... U2000 ..." - #544   "... This thread is about chess U2000 being ..." - #550

Avatar of kindaspongey
SmyslovFan wrote (about 48 minutes ago):

... If you read kindaspongey's latest posts, you will rightly conclude that he believes the topic of the the thread is "U2000" players. ...

"I was just trying to give some indication about why there have been posts that did not take this as a thread about chess U1200." - kindaspongey (~1 hourr ago)

Avatar of Lyudmil_Tsvetkov
JMurakami wrote:
Lyudmil_Tsvetkov wrote:
JMurakami wrote:

Here's another example. I had this game against Sweden FM Sigur and shows the clash of ideas during the opening, and how the outcome leads to favorable tactical situations later on. Of course the game has several inaccuracies; nonetheless it shows the roles of the opening, pawn structures and piece disposition and activity in the evolution of tactics during the game.

 

 Good game.

I presume after g3 and Bg2 white is already lost.

 

Thanks but, in truth, it isn't a game worth annotating. Too many inaccuracies and some mistakes on both sides. But, for demonstrating the point, fits well.

Amateurs don't need to be geniuses to follow a plan, and having a plan helps to focus the attention on which tactics will arise and how to make them work for us. I've seen other games from FM Sigur and I know he's better at chess than me... but if he messes things up in a game it becomes irrelevant if he can defeat me 9 out of 10.

That's what chess is about: Being precise when solving what's in front of us, rather than applying general guidelines or statistics, i.e. to treat each position by its own merits. Anything that can help to evaluate positions by their own merits should be welcome, not set aside because we blunder too often.

edit: No, White isn't lost after going for the fianchetto. But he got an strategic difficult game when refusing to deal with what was in front of him (he had to counter Black's pile up on the kingside with a faster Bc1–g5, lowering the material and accepting an equal game). When he finally traded the Bishop, the h–pawn wasn't less of a threat and f7–f5–f4 was already showing its head.

I did not see many mistakes on blaçk's part, so I presume it was not a 3 min. no increment game.

Bg5 hardly will change something, as after h6 the bishop will have to retreat again, otherwise Bf6 adds to black's positional assets the bishop pair.