I agree Qe7 is a good answer to Ng5 and Black seems fine in those lines.
Am I right in thinking that the most difficult line is the Nge2 d5 e5 Ng8 Nb1 line?
I found a couple of high level games that show how White should play it.
Owen's defence ?
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Nov 18, 2022
0
#143
PeterChaplin wrote:
I agree Qe7 is a good answer to Ng5 and Black seems fine in those lines.
Am I right in thinking that the most difficult line is the Nge2 d5 e5 Ng8 Nb1 line?
I found a couple of high level games that show how White should play it.
yeah, nge2 stuff is low key the line i least want to see. i tried making the d5 ng8 line work but i found the lines kind of miserable. Black has to remember a bunch of different lines to just be clearly worse and not dead.
i simply play the d6 line, where black will play c5 sooner or later and if all goes well, you get a decent hedgehog like position. If you book up well, the early f4 aggressive lines are almost more a trap for white than for black. The one line that i fear with d6 is the computer line d5! (or o-o first then d5) but fortunately, no one has ever played that agaisnt me, and its virtually unknown in the databases. you more likely to face d5 vs the natural c5 move (which is still rare) vs d5 vs the early d6 first line.
none of the nd2 lines, or bd3-qe2 lines or the the one line with pawn sac on nc3, after e5, ne4 0-0 nxc3 scare me,but that one niche nge2 line annoys me a lot.
Nov 19, 2022
0
#144
PeterChaplin wrote:
I agree Qe7 is a good answer to Ng5 and Black seems fine in those lines.
Am I right in thinking that the most difficult line is the Nge2 d5 e5 Ng8 Nb1 line?
I found a couple of high level games that show how White should play it.
actually i am curious on what you play agaisnt these lines, none which i think are a theoretical threat but require some finesse in handling
1.e4 b6 2.d4 bb7 3.bd3 nf6 4.qe2 e6 5.f4!?
1.e4 b6 2.d4 bb7 3.bd3 nf6 4.nc3 e6 5.nf3 bb4 6. nd2!?
1.e4 b6 2.d4 bb7 3.bd3 nf6 4. nd2 e6 5.c4!?
Nov 19, 2022
0
#145
In the line e4 b6 d4 Bb7 Bd3 Nf6 Nc3 e6 a3 c5 even now d5 is still quite good but not as critical.
I like the d6 idea going into a hedgehog I've not encountered the three lines you mentioned I will have a look.
In my own games I have been playing in hippo style against anything unusual or against some of the quiet lines.
Nov 19, 2022
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#146
Here's an example of an online blitz game of mine where I agreed a draw when plus 3 ☺️
f4 is a common move by White but I don't think particularly good because of the d4 tactic and Nh6 becomes a decent square.
I'm gambling that Nb1 is a hard move for a human to play without previous knowledge.
Nb1 is probably the only way to get a decent advantage.
Note that 8...c4 doesn't win a piece because of 9.f5! but you would probably need prior engine knowledge to be aware of that!
Wrong format. It plays automatically, so useless to learn from.
Nov 19, 2022
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#148
Here is the PGN then...
1. e4 b6?! 2. d4 Bb7 3. Nc3 e6 4. Bd3 Nf6 5. Nge2 d5 6. e5 Ng8 7. O-O c5 8. f4 Nh6 9. Bb5+? 9... Bc6 10. Bxc6+? 10... Nxc6 11. Be3 Nf5 12. Bf2 Ncxd4 13. Nxd4 Nxd4 14. Bxd4 cxd4 15. Nb5 Qd7 16. Nxd4 Bc5 17. c3 g6 18. Kh1 Bxd4 19. cxd4 Rc8 20. Qd3 O-O 21. Rac1?! 21... Rxc1 22. Rxc1 Rc8 23. Rxc8+ Qxc8 24. Qc3? 24... Qa6 { Black offers draw } { The game is a draw. } 1/2-1/2
Nov 19, 2022
0
#149
By the way @Optimissed no English Grandmaster ever said anything about playing 1...e6 before 1...b6 in the Owen defence.
They were referring to if one plays 1. d4 it's better to play 1...e6 so that you can play the French defence against 2.e4 for people who like the English defense but don't like playing the Owen's.
PeterChaplin wrote:
By the way @Optimissed no English Grandmaster ever said anything about playing 1...e6 before 1...b6 in the Owen defence.
They were referring to if one plays 1. d4 it's better to play 1...e6 so that you can play the French defence against 2.e4 for people who like the English defense but don't like playing the Owen's.
Actually, of course they did. It would be irresponsible not to discuss transpositions, especially regarding the French. However, what some GMs strongly recommended is e6 before Bb7, holding that 2. ... Bb7 is incorrect. That's what I previously mentioned.
I would argue that the correct move order is 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7
Or 1.d4 b6 2.c4 Bb7
Because it means the following position (which is one of whites best lines) is impossible to reach 😃
If 1.e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 then correct is 3...Nf6 followed by 4...e6 and then depending on what white does either 5...d5 against a Qe2 Nf3 setup or 5...Bb4 against a Qe2 Nc3 setup or 5...c5 against a Nc3 and a3 setup.
This move order also avoids any of the nasty to face gambits involving white playing d5 after black plays c5
Example:
1. e4 b6 2.d4 Bb7 3.Bd3 Nf6 4.Nc3 e6 5.Nge2 d5! (not 5...c5 when 6.d5! is a dangerous gambit) 6.e5 Ng8! Strange but best. White will enjoy a small advantage for several moves but the black position is perfectly playable with c5 and Nc6 to follow.
Sometimes the trapper got trapped too! Once I was able to checkmate in just 21 moves in a 2 +1 online bullet game with some help from my opponent in this variation...
its true, that you avoid that specific line but practically, after the nc6-nb4 manuever, the positions asymmetry is often to black player's liking.
i am with you in preferring the 3.nf6 move order in the owen's as the d5 lines (3.bd3 e6 4.nf3 c5 5.d5! and especially bd3-nc3-nge2 lines where c5 is met with d5) really have narrowed down the choices somewhat. But i think among the strongest players, like Nakamura there is a preference for 3.e6 4.nf3 d5 for some reason. I think many dont like the nd7, ng5 line so they rather bypass it all together ( actually the almost never player nd7, c4! line is tricky too.
i never understood the fear of the ng5 line personally. I think engines showed why be7, h5, nf8 plan is not as good as it was believed but the filipovic pawn sac with qe7 turns out too be pretty decent objectively (for an owen line i mean)