Nonetheless, the fact that such "finesses" are necessary speaks to the power of the Catalan. Clearly some advanced preparation is needed to counter it, which is more than one could say about more standard d4 lines, and certainly makes it strong at any level of play. A few things can't be denied: (1) considerable pressure along the h1-a8 diagonal, particularly on the d5 and b7 points; (2) a safer king due to the protection that the fianchetto provides; (3) which in turn allows white to play for an edge on the center or queenside (and in some cases the kingside with f4) without having to worry about any threats against white's king for some time.
Playing The Catalan System, Part 1: Basic Principles and Main Variations
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I think that in the OP's game he made an inaccuracy in the move order. IM Pfren would probably be the one to ask, but I think that g3 before Nf3 allows black extra options. It's not fatal or anything, but I think it's important.
OutofIdeas0510 wrote:
I think that in the OP's game he made an inaccuracy in the move order. IM Pfren would probably be the one to ask, but I think that g3 before Nf3 allows black extra options. It's not fatal or anything, but I think it's important.
If Black opts for 3...d5 then there is no difference. By playing 3.g3 white avoids the Queen's Indian, and in return allows 3...c5, which after 4. d5 leads to a fianchetto Benoni (where I am pretty sure Black is absolutely fine, despite the claims by mr. Avrukh), or after 4.Nf3 to some English sidelines (4...cd4 5.Nxd4 Qc7 6.Nc3 a6, or 5...d5 6.Bg2 e5) which are regarded as quite reliable for Black.
Nov 4, 2014
0
#25
Interestingly, FiveofSwords' comment would have been more accurate a few years ago, but the pendulum of chess fashion is swinging away from the Catalan lately as Black has come up with several successful plans to counter the Catalan.
Still, Avrukh's work has changed how opening books are written.
Nov 4, 2014
0
#26
Yes, that's more or less what I was saying. For example, a lot of commenators thought Carlsen pulled a nice ploy playing Caro Kann in first black, to encourage Anand to play 1.e4. When did finally play 1.d4, he tested Carlsen in Nimzo rather than Catalan. It's likely will be same in next match.
For club players the situation is quite good for catalan players though. Have a bunch of model games, and some of the toughest defences haven't filtered down to be played much. The most common I see being played is the closed catalan with good bishop, which remains quite promising for white.
Nov 17, 2014
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#27
It will be interesting to see if Anand tries nimzo or catalan in pretty critical game tomorrow.
I recently had a look at the variation 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 c5 (idea of Alvis Vitolinsh). I never played it with Black, but i was once confronted with it with White and i encountered some problems.
J.
ThrillerFan wrote:
No, that is a Closed Catalan setup. Bring the Light Squared Bishop outside the pawn chain before e6. That's the Slav Setup, and that's the ultimate problem with playing the Catalan against the Slav without Qc2. If Black plays e6 after say, 1.d4 d5 2.c4 c6 3.Nf3 Nf6 4.g3 and here 4...e6, you can thank Black!
Hey, hey! My opponent forgot to thank me. Should I sue him for that?
Jenot wrote:
I recently had a look at the variation 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 c5 (idea of Alvis Vitolinsh). I never played it with Black, but i was once confronted with it with White and i encountered some problems.
J.
I don't like this line very much. However, I have played many times a quite similar idea in the QID, which has been played by many top players (Carlsen included).
So far, a couple of wins and several draws. I am pretty sure that Black's position is 100% sound and solid.
Nov 19, 2014
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#31
The recent book "The Modern Bogo" gives a lot of analysis of the position after 1.d4 Nf6 2.c4 e6 3.g3 Bb4+ 4.Bd2 c5 5.BxB pxB 6Nf3 where against white's most dangerous idea of a3 opening the a-file and getting Nc3, they propose a5.
The book is quite quirky because the analysis is quite good in places, but leave out a lot too. Here it looks quite reasonable to try to make something out of not yet played Nf3, but don't mention this option at all.
Nov 19, 2014
0
#32
Is there a good recommendation for White in the Bogo? I'm not wild about Avrukh's recommendations, and I've had very mixed results with Nbd2 lines.
i feel like this opening is too complicated with too many subtilties for people below 2200...
Perhaps this is one strength of the English: you don't have to commit to anything too early, allowing maximum flexibility and often favorable transposition. Can white avoid bogo lines by beginning with c4, g3, Nf3, etc and only later opting for d4?
its very good
Apr 30, 2015
0
#37
Against the Bogo, at top level Nb-d2 is being played more often probably because white is running into a brickwall after Bd2 BxB QxB. Saw a game of Giri's where after 3Nb-d2 0.0 were he was quite dismissive of black's chances of equalising in the recently popular plan of d6 and e5. Black can still play the french type structures with d5 though.
Apr 30, 2015
0
#38
Bummer! I've been playing Nbd2 to get away from the Bd2 lines myself. And yeah, I noticed it's become more fashionable lately too.
You weren't supposed to mention it here tho, where everyone can see it!
ACTUALLY 7..B6 WAS A LOSING MOVE BY BLACK.AFTER THAT WHITE IS CLEARLY BETTER AND HAS THE INITIATIVE
I also have a nice game with the Catlan,( play not long a go, in my local chess club ) where Black try´s to set he´s position up, as it was the Slav Defence. Though I am not Grandmaster, and dosen play 1 d4 that much, I think this game, agree´s to the fact that Black, is having no easy game. Here, in my game, I think that Black my get a bit "clam´t in" behind he´s own position, trying to find a way out..........
White. John 1855 ( club rating ) Black. Carlos 1922 ( club rating )
1.d4 - e6.2.g3 - ( I play this move, more with the intension, to take Black out of he´s opening preparations, then to play the Catlan... )
2. ... - d5.3.c4 - c6 ( The "Catlan - Slave", set up.) 4.Nf3 - Nf6.5.Bg2 - Nbd7.6.0-0 - Be7.7.Nc3 - 0-0. ( I did think on taking the d5 pawn, but sins wee are with in the Catlan opening, I thought to my self, that I want to see what it could lead to... ) 8.b3 - (I want to support c4, and maybe be able to use a long turn idea, of keeping an eye, on a possible attack with Bb2 idear´s... ) a5? ( this just help white. By moving the a pawn, Black creates som week point on the queen side ( wich is Whites idea to attack in Catlan... Better was b6. ) 9.Bf4 - h6.10.Qc2 - Nh5.11.Bd2 - f5?? ( this cant be good ) 12. Rac1 - Nhf6. ( Black is starting to "pack hem self op" )
13.Nh4! - Qe8.14.cxd5. cxd5.15.Nb5!! ( +- ) - Rb8.16.Bf4 - f5. ( a crap attemt to fight back... But. ) 17.Bxb8 ( Play´d in clod blod ) - gxh4.18.Nd6 - Bxd6.19.Bxd6 - Rf7.20.Qxc8 - Qxc8.21.Rxc8+ - Kg7.22.gxh4 - ... And Black resign.....
A nice game, with room for improvement of couse, but still a nice game, that I think show´s that Black dosen have an easy game with the Slav set op, in the Catlan opening.....
Nice blog... :-)
Hi ThrillerFan, yes I wouldn't call that line a slav either, but was trying to clarify which positions were being talked about.
The closed catalan line, without black square bishops, is suprisingly difficult for white to prove an advantage. It's a small finess for black to delay castling, so if white goes for the e4 plan, can play Bb7, exchange on e4, then castle queenside and c5, with easy equality. In general white loses tempo with queen because of the bishop exchange, compared to normal closed catalan, trying for the e4 plan. Against other plans, i.e c4xd5 c6xd5 then Na3, intending after Ne5 NxN, to play Nc2-d4, whilst keeping option of Nb5, black can play Ba6. In those sort of positions the bad bishop on a6, is actually doing more useful work than Bg2.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R6ZTwR9tabM
It's one of the simpler lines for black to learn. The other Bb4 line mentioned is quite reasonable for black too, covered in John Cox's book on Queens Gambit Declined. It's more complicated but maybe gives black more winning chances. For example after 7Qc2 of the Anand v Topalov game, their are other moves where white gambits the c-pawn, prefer 7...Nc6 played by Smyslov and Taimanov in the 80's leads to more human chess in my opinion. After the more topical 7...Bxd2 8Qd2 c6 9a4 now instead of 9...b5, 9...Ne4 intending Nd6 is more inconvient for white apparantly. This was played in Hammer v Carlsen 2013. It kind of indicates a problem with catalan at the moment. At one point it was so popular and sucessful for white, that the elite players went to work finding playable lines against it. Now they have found many.