Yes, I agree, if you do not know Ponziani theory it can be a bad opening for you.
I have shared some of the theory it is just that I am able to share a whole lot more theory in the group Ponziani Power.
The main purpose of that group is to learn Ponziani theory. Or learn enough so one can play the Ponziani on a practical basis. You will find our members quite enthusiastic about the Ponziani Opening and there are reasons they are enthusiastic.
Yes, I agree, if you do not know Ponziani theory it can be a bad opening for you.
I have shared some of the theory it is just that I am able to share a whole lot more theory in the group Ponziani Power.
The main purpose of that group is to learn Ponziani theory. Or learn enough so one can play the Ponziani on a practical basis. You will find our members quite enthusiastic about the Ponziani Opening and there are reasons they are enthusiastic.
Are you sharing more theory with your group than in your book?
Cnannel, to answer your question: Any opening but especially the Ponziani Opening evolves over time.
So, yes, I am sharing theory with my group which has been developed since my book was published.
I am David Taylor, coauthor of Play the Ponziani. Sometimes I see a posting of how dull and boring is the Ponziani. Those who say this have little knowledge of the Ponziani and are usually just parroting what they have heard.
The Ponziani is a dynamic opening if you know the theory or some of the theory.
I will be glad to address any questions on this opening.
Ponz posted this 19 months ago.
Ponz, what are, in your opinion, best moves for white and (best responses for) black in Ponziani, up to move 10?
Dave really does answer almost all questions. There are 1 or 2 lines that I think he is still working on, so he does not discuss them because he has no conclusive analysis. That is understandable.
I stand by what I said.
Cnacnel, here are what I think are some of the best lines for White:
3. c3 f5 4. exf5
3. c3 f5 4. d4 fxe4 5. Nxe4 is also good for White
3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 Nxe4 5. d5 Ne7 6. Nxe5 Ng6 7. Nc4
3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 Nxe4 5. d5 Nb8 6. Nxe5
3. c3 d6 Bc4!?
3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 Bd7 5. exd5 Nd4 6. Qd1 Nxf6+ 7. Qxf6 this is a gambit by Black which gives interesting play on both sides.
Here are some lines which are reasonable for Black
3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Nd4 whitch is the line which pfren likes.
3. c3 d5 4. Qa4 f6 This line leads to tremendous complications and is very hard for both sides to play.
3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Ne4 6. Qe2 in this line it is helpful to know theory.
Note: I do not think 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 f5 is a good line for Black.
Always happy to see that line...
Ok, what is Black's absolute best line in the Ponziani, and what do you think is the correct objective evaluation of that line?
I do not know Black's absolute best line in the Ponziani.
It should be noted that two very good vote chess teams are
playing 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. c3 f5 against us now.
Asking me what is the very best line in the Ponziani for Black is like asking a Ruy Lopez player what is the best line for Black against the Ruy. He would simply not know the best line out of hundred million possible moves.
I do know this--whatever is the best line [if there even is one and there very well might not be one best line] against the Ponziani ends in a draw.
Also the very best line for Black in the Sicilian ends in a draw.
Same for Queen Pawn openings and 1. c4
The line I fear the most as White is 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc3 3. c3 d5
4. Qa4 f6 as it seems to be by far the most complicated line and while I have extensive analysis on this line--there is still some rather obscure lines I am still analyzing.
You never know for sure what exactly is going on in that line. I have some good responses but the line is so complicated, I cannot be 100% sure.
Here is a 15 minute per side game I played
Big thanks Ponz, I rarely play against Ponziani OTB, but after one lost game I analyzed black responses based on high level games and decided I should play d6. I guess I should check d5 out. I didnt like exd5 aftera Qa4
Here is a 15 minute per side game I played
Heh... maybe because 13...Qe8 14.gxh8N+ is available :)
correspondence game Marcotulli vs Metcalfe 2000
I agree with Jempty Method. I think Ponz should be compelled to release the entire game notations. Keeping the game notations secret just looks wierd -- like the group is trying to hide something.
I mean, its the notation from a vote chess game, not the Manhattan Project.
Just show us the notation, please!
Troll
Firebrand, as Ponz said of another post, you don't own this thread.
In the mean time...
Ponz, you said you find 3...d5 the most difficult line. Yeah, that's the sharpest, but one of the criticisms of your book was that you sell 3...Nf6 4.d4 exd4 5.e5 Nd5 too strongly. This is what Tim Harding wrote, in the Kibitzer:
The reply 3…Nf6 is probably the greatest deterrent to players adopting the
Ponziani and it occurred in most of my games with the opening, some of
which are included in this article. This is because, after the more or less
obligatory 4 d4 (the only move consistent with 3 c3), Black only has to learn
one line but White needs to learn, and be comfortable with, several different
types of position ranging from the crazily wild to the almost unutterably
boring and drawish.
This is basically the Goring Gambit Declined, which is considered to give about equal chances to Black. Harding took the Black side of this in a 2005 correspondence game, which he posted in the Kibitzer.
Igor M. Dolgov – Tim Harding ICCF Seventh European Team Championship Preliminary-3 Board 1, 2005.
I'm gonna guess that you are familiar with the game and his analysis. How would you answer Tim Harding's analysis? Do you still recommend 6.Qb3?
Here's a snippet of Harding's article for those who aren't familiar with it
http://www.chesscafe.com/text/kibitz172.pdf:
1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 c3 Nf6 The Ponziani route to this position is 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 c3 Nf6 4 d4 exd4. 5 e5 Nd5 As recommended by grandmaster Nigel Davies in a book that came out shortly before this game began. I have long been of the opinion that 5...Ne4 is good for White. As for 5...Qe7?! (stemming from Steinitz's Modern Chess Instructor) I met this once in a local league game and although I did not continue accurately, it left me in no doubt that White stands better after 6 cxd4 d6 7 Bb5 Bd7 (or 7...dxe5 8 0–0! e4 9 Ne5 Bd7 10 Bxc6 Bxc6 11 Nxc6 bxc6 12 Nc3) 8 0–0 dxe5 9dxe5!. 6 Bb5!? This is perhaps the most critical line from a tactical point of view.a) However, the authors recommend 6 Qb3, with which I have no experience. They continue 6...Nb6 7 cxd4 d6 8 Bb5 leading to a position where they claim an edge for White. Robert Taylor disagrees. He thinks it "odd that 7....d6 is quoted as main line; I always believed that 7....d5 is fine (and I don't see how Hayward disproves this). However, I do select 6 Qb3 when I get to this variant, I admit, so I agree in general with his choice."
b) 6 Bc4 Nb6 leads to the same kind of play as the game, the only difference being that Black has not advanced ...a7-a6.
c) The main alternative is 6 cxd4 which I have also played with White, winning rather luckily against WIM Sheila Jackson many years ago. Then
c1) The authors observe that 6...d6 gives an Alekhine's Defence position!
c2) Since people who play 1…e5 usually don't play the Alekhine's also, you are more likely to encounter 6...Bb4+ 7 Bd2 Bxd2+ when 8 Nbxd2! (keeping options with the queen) is the Hayward and Taylor recommendation. Instead I played 8 Qxd2 which should not give much.
6...a6 7 Ba4 As I remarked in my booklet, it looks as if White is playing the Ruy Lopez and Black is playing Alekhine's Defence!
Black need not fear 7 Bxc6 dxc6 8 Qxd4 (8 Bg5 Be7 9 Bxe7 Qxe7 Nigel Davies) 8...Bf5 (This move, due to typesetting and proof-reading failings, is missing from the book on page 122, left hand column.) 9 0–0 c5 10 Qd1 Qd7 11 Qb3 Qc6! (Sermek-Rogic, Dresden 1998) and now 12 Re1 is the least evil (Davies).
7...Nb6 In one of my old postal games Black played 7...b5 8 Bb3 Nb6 9 cxd4 d5 with an inferior kind of Open Spanish. I won as White in the end but not convincingly.
8 Bb3 dxc3!? This now looks unnecessarily risky to me. Davies said 8...d5! and didn't give any other lines. Taylor's old book didn't mention that move, but it is in his new book with Hayward and seems the clearest route to equality; e.g., 9 exd6 Bxd6 10 0–0 0–0 11 Bg5 Be7= (Velimirovic-Spassky, Reggio Emilia 1986), so if White wants to make something happen he must choose 9 cxd4 when Black's possible replies are 9...Be7 or 9...Bg4 (see page 123 in the book). There is scope for original exploration here.
9 Nxc3
Please go to the link I provided for the full article. I just gave a portion of it to show the flavor of Harding's criticism. It must have been vexing to be called "Robert Taylor" repeatedly by Harding, but otherwise, the review seemed fair.
pfren, you know a whole lot about many openings including the Ponziani.
But am sure you considered I may know some things about certain lines in the Ponziani that you may not know?
By this I mean published refutations to the Ponziani.
You do play a line 3. c3 Nf6 4. d4 exd4 5. e5 Nd5 which is a good line to play against the Ponziani but you and I do not agree 100% if it equalizes easily or not. You have experienced players playing bad moves for the White side of that variation. [I think]