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Pretty clean open Sicilian as white

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trw0311
not a fan of the Sicilian as white but as an e4 player I encounter it a lot. By far it is my worst opening, but I score much better taking the open instead of the alapin/delayed alapin.
This one went well, pretty even until white grabbed a slight edge my entombing the “dragon” on h8.

GooseChess

I actually think black wins with the passed pawn if they don't blunder their queen at the end. Extremely clean opening though.

trw0311
GooseChess wrote:

I actually think black wins with the passed pawn if they don't blunder their queen at the end. Extremely clean opening though.

White is +2 after Bc5. White has the initiative because of the checkmate threat, the correct move after Bxf8 is Qxc7 (queen trade). Black is down a rook and white has the initiative because black needs to recapture the bishop on f8. Ra7 wins the pawn and blacks bishop is hopelessly entombed vs two rooks. So essentially 2 rooks vs 1, and it will be hard to activate blacks king. white activates the king and the game is over.

Jahtreezy

Do you usually play 5. Nxc6, and if so, why? As a black Sicilian player, I'm usually happy to see my opponent give me support for ... d5 and a big center. And with a piece that burned 3 moves to boot!

GooseChess
trw0311 wrote:

White is +2 after Bc5. White has the initiative because of the checkmate threat, the correct move after Bxf8 is Qxc7 (queen trade). Black is down a rook and white has the initiative because black needs to recapture the bishop on f8. Ra7 wins the pawn and blacks bishop is hopelessly entombed vs two rooks. So essentially 2 rooks vs 1, and it will be hard to activate blacks king. white activates the king and the game is over.

I took a second look and yeah I think black wins was hyperbolic of me, but it's certainly a three outcome game if black doesn't hang the queen. The engine does think black should take with king like you said but most players would take with king instead, keeping the rook behind the pawn. Here white needs to find this weird move Rf4 to keep the engine convinced, with the idea of sacking a rook if black pushes. If white doesn't find Rf4 then they do still have two rooks but the 1st rank rook is tied to defending that pawn, and if the other rook tries to defend that pawn the king escapes. In both cases the bishop is lined up perfect to promote the pawn.

All that said, I think you still win since you outplayed them the whole game.

Mazetoskylo

- 4...d6: Not common, for a good reason: It allows white to occupy cntral space without compromising (5.c4!).

- 5.Nxc6: Sometimes such a waste of tempos is justified, either for tactical, or positional gains. Not the case here.

- 8.Nc3: While not a bad move by itself, it does not serve any mid-term plan. 8.c3 was still a better option.

- 8...Bb7: Pointless move. Nf6 and castling had to be prioritized.

- 10...c5 is a bit hasty, castling would give Black a perfectly good position.

- 11.Bb5+: Why not 11.e5 at once?

The rest of the things that happend in the game aren't opening-related.

Mazetoskylo
trw0311 wrote:
GooseChess wrote:

I actually think black wins with the passed pawn if they don't blunder their queen at the end. Extremely clean opening though.

White is +2 after Bc5. White has the initiative because of the checkmate threat, the correct move after Bxf8 is Qxc7 (queen trade). Black is down a rook and white has the initiative because black needs to recapture the bishop on f8. Ra7 wins the pawn and blacks bishop is hopelessly entombed vs two rooks. So essentially 2 rooks vs 1, and it will be hard to activate blacks king. white activates the king and the game is over.

Black can create a fortress with ...h6, ...g5 and ...Kh7-g6 when it's extremely tough to do something creative as White.

I assumed that it's just me who cannot find a convincing winning plan, but Stockfish cannot either, and gives just +0.2 after 29...Qxc7 30.Rxc6 Rxf8

(30...Kxf8 is dangerous as it moves the king away from the ideal g6 square, and leaves the f7 pawn vulnerable).

trw0311
GooseChess wrote:
trw0311 wrote:

White is +2 after Bc5. White has the initiative because of the checkmate threat, the correct move after Bxf8 is Qxc7 (queen trade). Black is down a rook and white has the initiative because black needs to recapture the bishop on f8. Ra7 wins the pawn and blacks bishop is hopelessly entombed vs two rooks. So essentially 2 rooks vs 1, and it will be hard to activate blacks king. white activates the king and the game is over.

I took a second look and yeah I think black wins was hyperbolic of me, but it's certainly a three outcome game if black doesn't hang the queen. The engine does think black should take with king like you said but most players would take with king instead, keeping the rook behind the pawn. Here white needs to find this weird move Rf4 to keep the engine convinced, with the idea of sacking a rook if black pushes. If white doesn't find Rf4 then they do still have two rooks but the 1st rank rook is tied to defending that pawn, and if the other rook tries to defend that pawn the king escapes. In both cases the bishop is lined up perfect to promote the pawn.

 

All that said, I think you still win since you outplayed them the whole game.

you are right, I think the game is a little more even than I thought with correct play. But at move 30 in a 10 | 0 game good luck to black pulling off a draw here! Pretty interesting position though. I think white just needs to get a rook on a1 while keeping the pawn protected on f6 to keep the bishop out of the game. White needs to push pawns and activate the king. In classical this would be a very tricky win for white still.

trw0311
Jahtreezy wrote:

Do you usually play 5. Nxc6, and if so, why? As a black Sicilian player, I'm usually happy to see my opponent give me support for ... d5 and a big center. And with a piece that burned 3 moves to boot!

I do , but I don’t endorse the move. I don’t really study openings yet, and I don’t like the Sicilian as black or white because why would I? I don’t study openings and the Sicilian is very theoretical. I choose to be tactically overpowered for my rating and I like wild attacking games; my resourcefulness usually gets me the win even if my opening isn’t that great.

that all said, I take with the knight just because it’s under attack and hanging if I have to move it again. I just follow basic opening principles like trying not to move the same piece twice so hey let’s just take those 2 pieces of the board instead and I’ll develop elsewhere.

i have the best luck getting my dark squared bishop on the king diagonal to prepare an f pawn push, so that’s how I’ve been playing this opening.

open to suggestions!!

Jopek9

I recommend for you Bb5 in case black will play Nc6 of d6. There are some similiarities with the Spanish

trw0311
Jopek9 wrote:

I recommend for you Bb5 in case black will play Nc6 of d6. There are some similiarities with the Spanish

I like that, thanks! That is true it does have some similarities. I am an Italian/scotch game guru so best to keep it similar to what I usually try to play.

Compadre_J

LOL

I think Black was playing the Old Main Line Sicilian Dragon move order.

Black must be using an old school chess opening book. Historical Chess players use to dismiss the Sicilian because it moved to many pawns

They use to:

move pawn - develop a piece
move pawn - develop a piece
move pawn - develop a piece

The modern mainline has like 4 pawn moves with only 1 piece move. LOL

trw0311
Compadre_J wrote:

LOL

I think Black was playing the Old Main Line Sicilian Dragon move order.

Black must be using an old school chess opening book. Historical Chess players use to dismiss the Sicilian because it moved to many pawns

They use to:

move pawn - develop a piece
move pawn - develop a piece
move pawn - develop a piece

The modern mainline has like 4 pawn moves with only 1 piece move. LOL

Yep when I started playing the Sicilian as black I would play just like he did lol. Not with good results so I switched to the caro which I still play almost exclusively against 1. E4. The Sicilian as white has always been my biggest issue. I have been meaning to learn the smith morra but haven’t gotten around to it yet. For now I just do what I did above and just try to keep it equal and out tactic or beat my opponent in the endgame which I am overpowered for my rating in. I will work on openings soon as I have a rough template on what I like to play and am probably high enough rated now to memorize lines.

Compadre_J

The main line white plays against the Sicilian Dragon is the Yugoslav Attack.

Jahtreezy
trw0311 wrote:
Jahtreezy wrote:

Do you usually play 5. Nxc6, and if so, why? As a black Sicilian player, I'm usually happy to see my opponent give me support for ... d5 and a big center. And with a piece that burned 3 moves to boot!

I do , but I don’t endorse the move. I don’t really study openings yet, and I don’t like the Sicilian as black or white because why would I? I don’t study openings and the Sicilian is very theoretical. I choose to be tactically overpowered for my rating and I like wild attacking games; my resourcefulness usually gets me the win even if my opening isn’t that great.

that all said, I take with the knight just because it’s under attack and hanging if I have to move it again. I just follow basic opening principles like trying not to move the same piece twice so hey let’s just take those 2 pieces of the board instead and I’ll develop elsewhere.

i have the best luck getting my dark squared bishop on the king diagonal to prepare an f pawn push, so that’s how I’ve been playing this opening.

open to suggestions!!

Heh, to the extent I study openings, it's because my toddlers don't give me enough time to play! So I'm by no means an expert, but just an average player who's had some success with in the Sicilian. Some random thoughts below:

  • Your knight is guarded by the queen, but if you want to keep the queen on the back rank, sure, trading makes sense. I typically don't take as Black because I want White to help my development.
  • In the open Sicilian like this, I like to play the Lowenthal (there are other variations that end up in a similar position, but I just go for it immediately). I play 4. ... e5. Most people either retreat (which gives me a better position) or take the knight (which allows bxc6 followed by d5 later on for a good center).
  • If White plays Nb5, I kick it with the a-pawn, and after Nd6+, Bxd6, Qxd6, it's rough but playable as Black. Could result in a queen-less middle game where White has the bishop pair but Black has an advantage in center development.
  • The f-pawn push plan you went for reminds me of the Grand Prix Attack--if you only look up one opening to fight the Sicilian, that might be intuitive to you to play and it definitely throws me off my normal Sicilian game plan. However, it tends to favor an early f4 with the pieces coming up behind.
Compadre_J

I want to clear up something important.

I want to show the difference in the lines for Black so OP can understand.

The below diagram moves are the main line move to reach Sicilian Dragon:

The below diagram moves are the main line moves to reach Accelerated Dragon:

Your opponent seemed to do weird mixture.

I think it was the old Sicilian Dragon line he was playing, but I wanted to show the above because he could of been going for Accelerated Dragon and just messed up the moves.

springerarchie

I don’t understand black’s 10th move 10……c5 opening themselves up for the bishop check rather than 10….O-O

Compadre_J

On move 22, White almost had the move Qxf8+.

22…Rxf8

23.Bxf8

Black can’t play 23…Kxf8 or they get mated with 24.Rd8#

They would have to play 23…Bxf6

24.Rxf6 Kxf8

It would be 2 Rooks vs. 1 Queen in the end.

Unclear if it is worth it, but it is very interesting.