Punishing Passive Play

I'm sure ever club, tournament, group of players (etc) has one: A system player!  Someone who blindly blitzes out a series of 6 or 7 moves before even taking a good look at the position.  These systems are generally very solid and unambitious.  Active play is the only way to advantage against them...

And so this leads to my question ... I've run into one of these 'systems' which is a little 'solider' than most.  I have a few ideas but perhaps someone more up to date on modern theory can give an actual line to refute this system.

Here it is:

It's a reversed Philidor Defense.  So find a way to beat it as White and then transfer that over to the Black side.

Mat,

This thread is almost as funny as your annotations to your Dragon game. There you commented how you used a positional idea in the Dragon and how that should be surprising. The funny part was it was a Maroczy bind, perhaps one of the most positionally oriented systems for White to play.

I dont know what you think the openings are supposed to be? 

In a 1.e4 e5 game you MUST be willing to aim for an equal position. If you want big counter-chances as Black early on then start playing 1...c5 to imabalance things. Otherwise, if you are bent on 1...e5 adopt the Schliemann or something like that which is accepted as less sound but offers counter-chances ( a risk). Even then, White may just play a Bc4 system and you have failed to imbalance the game significantly from move 1.

The comments of Xylograph are fairly accurate, although Black should be able to equalize if White plays too passively, even after 10 moves.

Think of the London System for White. There really is no refutation. Thinking that there is - well that is likely to lead to the desired effect of your opponent. You will end up overplaying your position as Black.

Be careful out there, learn to slowly outplay your opponent with manouvering. Otherwise 1...e5 might not be for you.

If I were playing, I might not immediately play into a reversed Philidor.  Here is what I would play.

How about an immediate 4...f5

Game Explorer says that an even earlier thrust 3... f5 scores well for Black. You'll certainly throw White off-balance.

ih8sens that reminds me of my "ideal setup"  XD

btw this is the "system" (I know how you hate this word!)  of destroying the pirc system - small positional choking that sucks the life out of his position.  Very informative.

Lol SWRR2009, if you'd seen some of my other games against the Dragon you'd know what I'm talking about. ... I tend to be an encyclopedia :P. ... 'deviating' into the Maroczy's isn't like me. (coincidentally, this is also the first time I've ever questioned my memory of openings)... 

But yeah, what I've found in 1. ... e5 defenses (which is still my defense of choice, despite experimenting in several Sicilian lines) is that black (despite being happy with equality) is always able to create SOMETHING to work with, whether it be a pawn majority or an attackable pawn or even an attackable square ... This is one of the first lines I've run into where white is literally handing black equality (or maybe even a tiny edge) and waiting to see what happens.  Historically I do alright in these lines, but there has to be something more dynamic!

Hey Matt

If this is one of the first lines you've run into where White hands Black equality, then you are in for a shock. There are many, many more of these lines. I think this just points to inexperience. Especially in the domain of 1.e4 e5. In the case of these often docile opening choices by White, it will be up to the better player to win the game and not just a result purely based on the opening. In effect (in the line you've shown) White chooses to level the playing field right from the start and ask: "Can you outplay me?" If the answer is no, then you have to accept that it's not the opening failing to produce ideas, its the player. After all there was no opening advantage for the White player now was there?

I think it is important for a chess player to be honest most of all to himself, otherwise you are cheating only yourself and simply wont learn.

If - as Black - you played the opening as shown above, then I would seriously advise you reread "Silman's Reassess Your Chess" Yes you developed, you brought out your pieces, and that is... adequate, or less than adequate. But you had no plan other than to develop. Silman talks about developing... with a plan! Obviously you had none, other then to place your pieces actively. I have seen this error in your play with unnecessary sacrifices as well, where you assume activity is enough. But its not. You need a plan! You need concrete variations!

If you are claiming you have some type of intuition then I think you need more experience before you rely on your intuition. Unfortunately correspondence chess may give you a very inflated feel about your true chess ability. Quite honestly I would say give it a rest and play OTB chess exclusively for awhile. Then increases are bound to happen where they are held in highest regard - OTB chess.

Mavros

Well that's kinda my point ... What's the correct plan? ... Pressure the center I'd assume ... which is precisely what my development does.  Yet there's no concrete continuation.

Lol nevermind.  If you don't know what I'm trying to say you won't be able to understand anyways.

ih8sens, the philidor defense can actually be a little confusing. At first I thought white's (in your case black's!) plan was to after playing d4 develop harmoniously and situate the heavy pieces on the d file after all the pieces are developed, then consider either dxe5 or f4 putting more pressure on e5. This is a logical plan; if it didn't have a strong counter. One day I was putting this stuff into fritz (and using MCO on the phlidor) and when black was doing this setup I saw an early dxe5. I was like what?? Why do that? So I let fritz tell me (because MCO didn't even have this line) what happens if I just play moves like h3, Be3, 0-0, and try to put the heavy pieces on the d file. Eventually it says that black is equal after ...exd4!

This shocked me because I thought this was what white wanted! What happened was that after ...exd4 Nxd4, (this is when black played moves like ...Re8 and ...c6 and ...Nd7) black could play moves like ...Nc5 with a big attack on e4, and play ...b5 to pester the white bishop. there was no way for white to really make progress (it's kind of like Nimzowitch's restaint plan being carried out perfectly) because e4 was so crippled and actually weak. So white is not playing correctly if he doesn't take within the first 9 moves or so and that would allow you to build up.

Put these moves in yourself (black controlling the e file and getting ready to take and attack e4 with ...nc5, castle, so on) if you want and you'll see how white has trouble making progress. So the correct idea after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 d6 3 d4 Nd7 4 Nc3 c6 is 5 dxe5! followed by Ng5. This gives black equal central control but white's development allows him to attack and he tries to get a permenant advantage out of it (I think white gets the bishop pair with advantage). However, the plan with ...f5 is much easier to understand and can give you good chances while white will be lacking them.

But in the real philidor you can't do that. Sorry if this sounds vague and confusing, I may post the actual move orders later!

No I follow ... That's interesting.  It's something like a game I just recently played where I broke the tension in the center looking for a draw (vs. an IM) and ended up (unintentionally) the advantage!

Post some diagrams if you get the chance... this is a newish concept :).

The funny thing is I answered your question about what to do if white doesn't take, but the only problem with it is white takes! I should post some diagrams.

Well this is what happens if white (in regular philidor) does that plan I said at the beginning

So that was very suprising. Unfortunately I don't know where MCO is so I don't know what that dxe5 line was exactly.

The Philidor is unpopular for a reason. Well, supposedly anyway. I run against it all the time and it's almost always another boring, grind it out win since they inevitably play 3. ... exd4.

By the way, here's a refutation to Black's play in the last diagram.

Interesting line against the Philidors... 5. ... Be7 saves black's position though.  Nf6 is a mistake (as mentioned in your diagram Tenna).

I suppose the whole idea behind this thread was less about the opening and more about the midgame. ... Black (or white in the original post) has a weakness free position.  The attacking side simply can't win (no matter how long they move their rooks around :P) without something to attack.  Normally there is some apparent way to create a weakness but it isn't so easy in positions of this nature.

I was lazily putting in the moves. Anyway it reaches the same position just with a bad move order, but dxe5 as in that diagram followed by an aggressive move can give white an initiative.

Well actually if Black plays 5. ...Be7 you can do this:

Yep, dxe5 just gives white a solid plus. When I saw MCO it said white got the two bishops so the line is probably similar to that. So that's a good idea ih8sens, and I don't think that extra tempo will be that important. It brings him closer to equality, but if he plays that way black should still be better.