Queens Gambit is not a Gambit (complete guide)

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Avatar of voracious_reader
Roman_Eagle escribió:
 

Classical Beginner Analysis. Actually, it is. There is an opening called the Queen's Gambit Accepted. Black can hold on to the pawn in many variations but White usually gets some compensation in the form of an attack or central control. 

Could you please elaborate on some of these variations? I'm sure there are plenty of players that only play the (Semi)Slav or QGD because they've become afraid to take the pawn. I feel maybe they're not too sure how to know if White is not being sharp and you can get away with the extra pawn or you should give it up and complete development instead of tying yourself in knots defending the pawn.

Avatar of my137thaccount
J_Estrada wrote:
Roman_Eagle escribió:
 

Classical Beginner Analysis. Actually, it is. There is an opening called the Queen's Gambit Accepted. Black can hold on to the pawn in many variations but White usually gets some compensation in the form of an attack or central control. 

Could you please elaborate on some of these variations? I'm sure there are plenty of players that only play the (Semi)Slav or QGD because they've become afraid to take the pawn. I feel maybe they're not too sure how to know if White is not being sharp and you can get away with the extra pawn or you should give it up and complete development instead of tying yourself in knots defending the pawn.

People who play the Semi-Slav or the Slav most certainly intend on taking the pawn; in the QGD Vienna Variation black will also take on c4. However Roman Eagle is wrong that black can hold the pawn in the Queen's Gambit Accepted. It's not just 'some compensation' that white gets, but if black plays for keeping the pawn white will win it back and gain an advantage. Black doesn't have a reasonable way to prevent the tactic with b3 winning back the pawn.

Avatar of poucin

I read so many wrong things here...

First, many wrong statements about queen's gambit accepted.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 d5xc4, white has 3 main moves : 3.Cf3, 3.e3, 3.e4. 3.Nc3 can be countered by 3...a6!

For many years, the main idea was to recover c4 with Nf3 first, then e3.

But black discovered a variation we could call the Svidler variation, based on 3...a6 followed by b5 :

I don't give analysis but just believe me, this variation just kills white's advantage.

This line became very popular at high level, it was the drawing weapon on 1.d4 d5 2.c4.

That's why fashion was 3.e3 and 3.e4.

I don't know the actual theorical status of 3.e3, but at least, white avoids this Svidler's line.

Same with 3.e4 with some fresh positions.

About 3.e3, I don't understand the variation given by OP ;

1.d4 d5 2.c4 d5xc4 3.e3 Be6 (indeed a critical move, instead of the classical e5) 4.Qa4 and now of course 4...c6 when white cannot recover c4.

Even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 d5xc4 3.e4 b5 is playable, as given by Glenn Flear in the book Dangerous Weapons - Queen's gambit.

It is not so simple for white to recover the pawn...

Avatar of my137thaccount
poucin wrote:

I read so many wrong things here...

First, many wrong statements about queen's gambit accepted.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 d5xc4, white has 3 main moves : 3.Cf3, 3.e3, 3.e4. 3.Nc3 can be countered by 3...a6!

For many years, the main idea was to recover c4 with Nf3 first, then e3.

But black discovered a variation we could call the Svidler variation, based on 3...a6 followed by b5 :

I don't give analysis but just believe me, this variation just kills white's advantage.

This line became very popular at high level, it was the drawing weapon on 1.d4 d5 2.c4.

That's why fashion was 3.e3 and 3.e4.

I don't know the actual theorical status of 3.e3, but at least, white avoids this Svidler's line.

Same with 3.e4 with some fresh positions.

About 3.e3, I don't understand the variation given by OP ;

1.d4 d5 2.c4 d5xc4 3.e3 Be6 (indeed a critical move, instead of the classical e5) 4.Qa4 and now of course 4...c6 when white cannot recover c4.

Even 1.d4 d5 2.c4 d5xc4 3.e4 b5 is playable, as given by Glenn Flear in the book Dangerous Weapons - Queen's gambit.

It is not so simple for white to recover the pawn...

Can you please give some analysis? I am interested in this for black

Avatar of poucin

Well, u can purchase the book i mentionned...

Avatar of kaspariano

"But black discovered a variation we could call the Svidler variation"

 

Svidler was not even in the plan to be born when that 3...a6 move was played for the first time, 4.a4 is the answer to that, it has been played since about 1936 in thousands of games.

Avatar of my137thaccount
kaspariano wrote:

"But black discovered a variation we could call the Svidler variation"

 

Svidler was not even in the plan to be born when that 3...a6 move was played for the first time, 4.a4 is the answer to that, it has been played since about 1936 in thousands of games.

@poucin did not say Svidler was the one who discovered it

Avatar of poucin

Sure but this game (Aronian-Svidler), was the one which made this variation popular for black.

Svidler was the first top player who employed it, several times, with success.

This line was a bit forgotten till Svidler revived it.

4.a4 is possible but is a concession, and not really the solution.

For example, a possible line is :

where a4 created weaknesses and Na5 tries to benefit from it.

Avatar of Roman_Eagle

This is pathetic. It's called a gambit since White gives up  a pawn, even if it is temporary. 

Avatar of Yudodattome

try this. play e3 first and see what happens

look at that

Avatar of my137thaccount
Roman_Eagle wrote:

This is pathetic. It's called a gambit since White gives up  a pawn, even if it is temporary. 

Bear in mind this is a 3-year-old thread. It only got resurrected because of people discussing the merits of different lines against the QGA, and if I had not responded to your comment nobody would be discussing this. It's usually considered than white can regain the pawn, though IM poucin gave some insightful analysis showing how it's not always straightforward. Very "pathetic" indeed - the only person claiming the QG is not a gambit is the guy from 2016

Avatar of anyanwudavid

well... this is alot to stomach

Avatar of Blunderfull711

I have enjoyed the discussion of the QGA but you are all missing the original point. The point was not that I gave the best lines or that I gave a complete guide to the QGA. The point and the only point was that after 3. C4 which is by definition when the opening is titled "Queens Gambit" white has not sacrificed a pawn yet because tactically white can win the pawn back in every scenario. Despite many people saying the original claim is wrong no one has disproved the premise. If black does not take the pawn immediately then white can just take d5 if they so chose. 3. c4 does not gambit a pawn. Again it is probably the case that white should gambit the pawn for a better position but I never claimed that winning the pawn back was best just that it was optional. 

Avatar of Optimissed
poucin wrote:

I read so many wrong things here...

First, many wrong statements about queen's gambit accepted.

After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 d5xc4, white has 3 main moves : 3.Cf3, 3.e3, 3.e4. 3.Nc3 can be countered by 3...a6!

For many years, the main idea was to recover c4 with Nf3 first, then e3.

But black discovered a variation we could call the Svidler variation, based on 3...a6 followed by b5 :

I don't give analysis but just believe me, this variation just kills white's advantage.>>>

Aronian played badly in that game in post 28 but of course, in any case the QGA is fine for black. White can get a bit more space and some pressure but that's all. In return, black gets piece activity.

But I think Aronian, as well as playing badly, made a strategic mistake in not playing ab before bc. He was probably thinking that white should keep pieces on but that's illogical in that position. The two a-rooks cancel each other out so white may as well swap them off because white gets two advantages from that. One is more squares for his queen and the other is that in some variations black's bishop may want to swap diagonals, which takes an extra move from a8. People are playing this Svidler variation against me and I worked this out over the board the first time it was played. I usually get the better position .... maybe players of black are trying to copy GM moves down a line that isn't the best for white.

Avatar of kaspariano
Blunderfull711 wrote:

I have enjoyed the discussion of the QGA but you are all missing the original point. The point was not that I gave the best lines or that I gave a complete guide to the QGA. The point and the only point was that after 3. C4 which is by definition when the opening is titled "Queens Gambit" white has not sacrificed a pawn yet because tactically white can win the pawn back in every scenario. Despite many people saying the original claim is wrong no one has disproved the premise. If black does not take the pawn immediately then white can just take d5 if they so chose. 3. c4 does not gambit a pawn. Again it is probably the case that white should gambit the pawn for a better position but I never claimed that winning the pawn back was best just that it was optional. 

 

Yes you are right, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 white can win the pawn back or get a won position if black insists in directly defending the pawn (there is not question about that), but black does not have to directly defend the pawn, black can play 3...e5 instead and equalize the game if white takes the pawn back right away

 
 
still, white can win the pawn back without allowing black to equalize, not by playing 3.e3, but by playing 3.Nf3.  I know this because I am a Queen's Gambit player
 


 

Avatar of my137thaccount
kaspariano wrote:
Blunderfull711 wrote:

I have enjoyed the discussion of the QGA but you are all missing the original point. The point was not that I gave the best lines or that I gave a complete guide to the QGA. The point and the only point was that after 3. C4 which is by definition when the opening is titled "Queens Gambit" white has not sacrificed a pawn yet because tactically white can win the pawn back in every scenario. Despite many people saying the original claim is wrong no one has disproved the premise. If black does not take the pawn immediately then white can just take d5 if they so chose. 3. c4 does not gambit a pawn. Again it is probably the case that white should gambit the pawn for a better position but I never claimed that winning the pawn back was best just that it was optional. 

 

Yes you are right, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 white can win the pawn back or get a won position if black insists in directly defending the pawn (there is not question about that), but black does not have to directly defend the pawn, black can play 3...e5 instead and equalize the game if white takes the pawn back right away

 
 
still, white can win the pawn back without allowing black to equalize, not by playing 3.e3, but by playing 3.Nf3.  I know this because I am a Queen's Gambit player
 
 


 

3.e4 is more testing than 3.Nf3, and, as discussed, 3.e4 e5 does not equalise immediately for black like you said originally; in fact ir is harder for black ti equalise than after 3.Nf3. This is well-known and most GMs are now playing 3.e4 as it poses black more problems.

Avatar of kaspariano
my137thaccount wrote:
kaspariano wrote:
Blunderfull711 wrote:

I have enjoyed the discussion of the QGA but you are all missing the original point. The point was not that I gave the best lines or that I gave a complete guide to the QGA. The point and the only point was that after 3. C4 which is by definition when the opening is titled "Queens Gambit" white has not sacrificed a pawn yet because tactically white can win the pawn back in every scenario. Despite many people saying the original claim is wrong no one has disproved the premise. If black does not take the pawn immediately then white can just take d5 if they so chose. 3. c4 does not gambit a pawn. Again it is probably the case that white should gambit the pawn for a better position but I never claimed that winning the pawn back was best just that it was optional. 

 

Yes you are right, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 white can win the pawn back or get a won position if black insists in directly defending the pawn (there is not question about that), but black does not have to directly defend the pawn, black can play 3...e5 instead and equalize the game if white takes the pawn back right away

 
 
still, white can win the pawn back without allowing black to equalize, not by playing 3.e3, but by playing 3.Nf3.  I know this because I am a Queen's Gambit player
 
 


 

3.e4 is more testing than 3.Nf3, and, as discussed, 3.e4 e5 does not equalise immediately for black like you said originally; in fact ir is harder for black ti equalise than after 3.Nf3. This is well-known and most GMs are now playing 3.e4 as it poses black more problems.

 

I just realized that you give your opinions without even bothering checking the positions with an engine first.  Way to go! buddy 

Avatar of poucin

Yes you are right, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 white can win the pawn back or get a won position if black insists in directly defending the pawn (there is not question about that), but black does not have to directly defend the pawn, black can play 3...e5 instead and equalize the game if white takes the pawn back right away 

"No question about that", hum let's see...

How do u get advantage here for white, or how do u recover the pawn?

Avatar of Algoritmo-DCP

Qa4 y Ka3?

Avatar of my137thaccount
kaspariano wrote:
my137thaccount wrote:
kaspariano wrote:
Blunderfull711 wrote:

I have enjoyed the discussion of the QGA but you are all missing the original point. The point was not that I gave the best lines or that I gave a complete guide to the QGA. The point and the only point was that after 3. C4 which is by definition when the opening is titled "Queens Gambit" white has not sacrificed a pawn yet because tactically white can win the pawn back in every scenario. Despite many people saying the original claim is wrong no one has disproved the premise. If black does not take the pawn immediately then white can just take d5 if they so chose. 3. c4 does not gambit a pawn. Again it is probably the case that white should gambit the pawn for a better position but I never claimed that winning the pawn back was best just that it was optional. 

 

Yes you are right, after 1.d4 d5 2.c4 dxc4 3.e3 white can win the pawn back or get a won position if black insists in directly defending the pawn (there is not question about that), but black does not have to directly defend the pawn, black can play 3...e5 instead and equalize the game if white takes the pawn back right away

 
 
still, white can win the pawn back without allowing black to equalize, not by playing 3.e3, but by playing 3.Nf3.  I know this because I am a Queen's Gambit player
 
 


 

3.e4 is more testing than 3.Nf3, and, as discussed, 3.e4 e5 does not equalise immediately for black like you said originally; in fact ir is harder for black ti equalise than after 3.Nf3. This is well-known and most GMs are now playing 3.e4 as it poses black more problems.

 

I just realized that you give your opinions without even bothering checking the positions with an engine first.  Way to go! buddy 

Lol engines? OK I'm out of this discussion, I'll let @poucin argue with you