Fromper wrote: "the choice of opening isn't going to determine the outcome of any game below master level"
That's absolutely false; the moves 1.e4 e5 and 1.e4 c5 will lead to entirely different middlegames and endgames at any level of play, and if as an amateur you know the typical strategies and tactics in a certain structure better than others, your choice of opening is extremely relevant.
The ruy lopez is by all means one of the strongest openings for white to play, however no black player needs to play the spanish game because black has many alternatives and can avoid that line completely.
Personally, I normally as white play the italian game instead of the spanish game when going down that line because I have more experiance in it, not that it is better than the spanish I just know the lines better.
The ruy lopez is by all means one of the strongest openings for white to play, however no black player needs to play the spanish game because black has many alternatives and can avoid that line completely.
Personally, I normally as white play the italian game instead of the spanish game when going down that line because I have more experiance in it, not that it is better than the spanish I just know the lines better.
Good point. I could spend 1000 hours studying the Ruy Lopez, be an expert in this opening and maybe only get to play it a few times in my life. What are the odds of me getting to play 3.Bb5? Black needs to make two specific moves, 1...e5 and 2...Nc6. The Petroff, Scandinavian, Sicilian, French, Caro-Kann...puts a stop to the Ruy. I'll spend 24 hours on the Ruy, over the course of a year. :)
I watched a very short youtube video on the Giuoco Piano, took notes and added a few Fritz Powerbook lines and engine lines. Enjoy.
Well said, and particularly true in the case of the Spanish Opening.
I stumbled upon a clever little miniature in the Ruy Lopez. If only chess could be this easy.
2. For beginners, 3. Bc4 is more immediately tactical and more likely to lead to a very early central pawn exchange, and thus, it's more educational.
2. You've said this in a previous post, and my chess understanding is not there yet to know why early pawn exchanges are educational for the beginning chess player. Please elaborate. Thanks. :)
Exchanging pawns, especially central pawns, opens lines of attack for the pieces. This creates more opportunities for tactical piece play. In closed games (those without early central pawn trades), the pieces don't have those open lines to take advantage of, so there's more positional maneuvering before the armies engage each other directly.
But in the end, the position always has to get opened up eventually (unless it gets completely locked up and ends up being a dead draw). So every player needs to know how to handle open positions. And beginning players especially need to get better at tactics, which come up faster and more frequently in open games. Get better at the tactics that come up in open positions first, then you can learn about the more subtle maneuvering of closed positions later.
Thus, many, MANY masters and professional coaches recommend that beginner/intermediate players stick to open games, usually categorized as 1. e4 e5 as both black and white. But some lines of the Ruy Lopez stay closed and don't trade pawns very early, which is the reason the Italian openings (Giuoco Piano with c3 and d4, Two Knights Defense with either 4. d4 or 4. Ng5) are often recommended as typical beginner openings. The Scotch (3. d4) also trades center pawns early, but it lacks the bishop aimed at the weak f7 square, which often helps with the creation of tactics in the Italian opening complex, which is why I prefer the Italian for beginners.
And again, quite a few people here are missing the point. The Ruy Lopez may be the best opening possible for white at the grandmaster level. But you're talking about subtle positional advantages, where a computer program might say that white is .02 pawns better than if he'd played another opening. Below the master level, that .02 pawn difference is worth exactly half of jack squat.
This is total and absolute nonsense Fromper, and I'm surprised at it coming from you.
It would be more like at LEAST 0.2 pawns, not 0.02 pawns. 0.02 pawns wouldn't be even worth much on GM level.
And what's more, learning and understanding openings is about more than getting the 0.2 advantage in the opening. It's about learning what you should do in chess, what is good and what should be avoided. Opening principles can be used at many points during the opening and middle game.
Ok, maybe it's a .2 pawn difference. That's still not enough to matter at beginner level. Back when I was rated in the 1300's (USCF), I used to give up a whole pawn with an unsound gambit, playing 1. d4 e5 as black. I never lost a game with that opening in USCF games against opponents below 1600. At that level, 1. d4 players are hoping for a quiet game, and a wild gambit to open up the center just rocks their world. The fact that it's blatantly unsound doesn't much matter.
Even if the Ruy Lopez is stronger than the Italian at the grandmaster level, that has absolutely zero bearing whatsoever on what openings a beginner, or even intermediate level player like myself, should be playing. My point is that ANY opening that's even remotely sound is good enough. And I honestly believe that the Italian and Scotch are more educational for beginners than the Ruy, for the reasons I stated in my last post.
Learning opening PRINCIPLES is about learning how to play good chess. Memorizing specific opening lines just to copy the grandmasters isn't useful, until after you've learned how to handle the resulting positions.
2. For beginners, 3. Bc4 is more immediately tactical and more likely to lead to a very early central pawn exchange, and thus, it's more educational.
2. You've said this in a previous post, and my chess understanding is not there yet to know why early pawn exchanges are educational for the beginning chess player. Please elaborate. Thanks. :)
Exchanging pawns, especially central pawns, opens lines of attack for the pieces. This creates more opportunities for tactical piece play. In closed games (those without early central pawn trades), the pieces don't have those open lines to take advantage of, so there's more positional maneuvering before the armies engage each other directly.
Thanks for the explanation. It makes sense now. :)
Sometimes I get lucky and am able to advance my center pawn(s), with rooks behind them, and break open the center files deep in enemy territory, especially when my opponent does not place pawns in the center.
why not try out the kings gambit?
After a bit more study, I'll give this gambit a try. I can't imagine after all is said and done, that I never played the King's Gambit.
Musikamole->I'm only a slightly better player than you, and I find that the best way to improve is to go over your own games. Perhaps you should post a few on this forum?
Also, takeback games against higher-rated players are useful. They help point out what you did wrong.
I play the Ruy Lopez very successfully. However, it does require a great deal of work and study in order to deal with the plethora of variations that can easily arise when playing this opening. If you want to play it, make sure you have a handle on the variations (especially the subtle variations). Of course, it should be said that nearly any opening in the hands of a skilled player can be deadly. You simply cannot discount one opening for another.
Its also a question of playing style. Do you prefer open or closed games? Do you like playing black rather than white? Are you agressive or conservative? This list goes on.
To be fair and reply to something the OP has said, in all actuality you would probably get the Ruy Lopez in twenty to forty percent of your games with 1.e4, not a few times in your life.
It is much higher at lower levels, where 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 is even more popular than 1...c5. 
That being said, I have to agree with all of the advice about opening lines of play for the pieces.
1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 (C44 Scotch Game)
1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6(2...d6, 2...e6...but not 2...a6!? 3.c4!) 3.d4, etc. (B32 Open Sicilian)
You can play 2.d4 against most first moves, the exceptions being 1...d5, 1...e5, 1...c5, 1...Nf6, 1...b5, and 1...f5. The last two drop a pawn to one-movers, and other moves should be met by 2.d4 grabbing central space.
The Ruy Lopez is more popular at my level? Cool! A non-booked player with the Black pieces can go wrong pretty fast with the Ruy. Recently, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Bxc6, my opponent played 4...bxc6 (?). Playable, but not the best move. I won.
Before playing 1.d4 for about a year, I played the Scotch with good success. Black almost always went into a deep think after 3.d4!
What do you think about the Closed Sicilian - Grand Prix Attack?
The Closed Sicilian gets less play, so perhaps it would be a good surprise weapon with 2.Nc3, and after 2...Nc6, hit my opponents with 3.f4! GM Boris Alterman teaches a series on the Grand Prix Attack over at ICC, including many attacking themes.
Musikamole->I'm only a slightly better player than you, and I find that the best way to improve is to go over your own games. Perhaps you should post a few on this forum?
Also, takeback games against higher-rated players are useful. They help point out what you did wrong.
I've taken several months off from online chess to focus on improving my health. I'm real close to full mental strength and am itching to play again soon. I'll post a few of my 1.e4 adventures in the near future. :)
I play the Ruy Lopez very successfully. However, it does require a great deal of work and study in order to deal with the plethora of variations that can easily arise when playing this opening. If you want to play it, make sure you have a handle on the variations (especially the subtle variations). Of course, it should be said that nearly any opening in the hands of a skilled player can be deadly. You simply cannot discount one opening for another.
Its also a question of playing style. Do you prefer open or closed games? Do you like playing black rather than white? Are you agressive or conservative? This list goes on.
I'm not concerned with long variations in the Ruy Lopez, since games go out of book so fast in Live Chess at my level. Not sure yet if I will play 3.Bc4 or Bb5 in Turn-Based Chess. I may play the Scotch.
Its also a question of playing style. Do you prefer open or closed games? Do you like playing black rather than white? Are you agressive or conservative? This list goes on.
I have to disagree with this part. Low-intermediate level players don't have a "style", even if they think they do. What they (we) have is a collection of weaknesses. And that's true to at least 1800 rating (OTB, not online), possibly even higher.
I used to think I had a quiet, positional style. What that really meant is that I didn't know how to attack. Playing wild gambits to force myself to learn tactics and how to attack caused more improvement in 6 months than I'd seen in over a year of playing positions I was supposedly comfortable with.
Improvement begins at the edge of your comfort zone, not inside it.
The Scotch is fun because against relatively unprepared players, true gambits are very strong.
For example, 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.O-O (meeting Nxe4 with 6.Re1 d5 7.Bxd5! Qxd5 8.Nc3 followed by recapturing on e4 with either piece depending on where the queen moves. I once had an Expert play 8...Qc5? 9.Nxe4 Qb6?? 10.Nf6+ Kd8 11.Re8#) and 4.Bc4 Bc5 5.O-O!? (5.c3 Nf6 6.cxd4 is a Guioco Piano mainline, while 5...dxc3 should lose) 5...d6 (critical, Nf6 transposes to a Max Lange attack, an opening that requires some study but the tactics generally win the game in the opening against unprepared opponents. this can also be reached after 4.Bc4 Nf6 5.O-O Bc5) 6.c3!? with the idea of meeting dxc3 with Nxc3, Bg5, and Nd5 with a strong attack.
I don't have time to diagram this but if someone is interested it shouldn't be hard to convert.
Unprepared is what I like, from my opponent. :) I'll be happy to diagram these lines. Thanks for the post.
C44 - The Scotch Gambit: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.d4 exd4 4.Bc4
If 4. ...d6, the White retakes on d4, and it's just the old Philidor. (The White didn't promise that he will never ever recapture the pawn.) If you play 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 you should be prepared for the Philidor anyway.
Johny Hector had pretty much demolished the Max Lange Attack with
1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. d4 exd4 4. Bc4 Nf6 5. O-O Nxe4 6. Re1 d5 7. Bxd5 Qxd5 8. Nc3 Qh5 9. Nxe4 Be6 10. Bg5 Bd6 11. Nxd6+ cxd6 12. Bf4 Qd5 13. c3 Kd7 ; but lately Hector has started playing this from the White side. Wonder what he has up his sleeve?
You can see the excitement on the players' faces when their opponents play 4...d6.
4...Nf6 = (0.10) , 4...d6 +/= (0.34). Rybka starts cheering for White after Black plays 4...d6.
The most popular book move is 4...Nf6, however, Rybka thinks that 4...Bb4+ is the strongest reply, scoring = (- 0.12).
At my level, none of these small swings in evaluation matter. I don't get excited until I see a full minor piece swing (+3.00). If my opponent is down a pawn, it's still anyones game.
3.Bb5 pressures the e5-pawn indirectly and thus fights over the center. 3.Bc4 doesn't do this and is exposed to ...d5 or ...Na5 ideas. If the Bb5 gets pushed back to b3 by a6/b5, white will have provoked weaknesses and put his bishop on a better square than c4. Therefore, the Ruy Lopez is objectively much better than the Italian. It's not that hard.