Ruy lopez middlegame plans.

I don't use all the ideas in one game,it depends on what the opponent plays or even my mood.

But beginners are usually taught the Italian with c3 and the immediate d4 (stuff like the Greco Gambit, the Scotch Gambit or the line with exd4 e5). If you compare the Ruy Lopez and the Slow Italian with d3 (which is more critical) it's just as complicated as closed Ruy Lopez variations. I think even GM games proof that the Italian middlegames are sometimes harder to completely understand than the Ruy Lopez middlegames. Also, the Slow Italian is unmatched in the amount of move order tricks and traps, because the positions tend to look very similar when subtle differences matter.

Regarding your posts about the Arkhangelsk transposition: Why should Black after 8. ...Bb7 9. d3 respond with Bc5? I don't think moving the Bishop again makes a lot of sense. As Black I'd either go for 9. ...d5 or 9. ...d6. Now, you keep mentioning that the Anderssen Variation with the immediate 5. d3 is worse than the mainlines with 5. O-O. But I don't see how your high class waiting move 8. h3 Bb7 9. d3 d6 achieved anything better. You still can't push for d4; all the complications just to avoid the Marshall Gambit, so you might as well just go for d3 c3 to prepare d3-d4.

...which means that a beginner who adopted the Ruy knows what to do against 3...Nf6 incl. the Berlin, the Classical, the Smyslov, the Cozio, the Jaenisch and a couple of other oddballs where Black doesn't play 3...a6?

Like it or not, White does have to know much, much more to play the Ruy.

Against Italian Game - Black has 3 lines they can play.

Against Ruy López - Black has 50 lines they can play.

Knowing what you have to do against 50 different lines is much harder vs. knowing what you have to do against 3 lines.

- More complex

- More complicated

People on this thread need to get past this!

If people on this thread actually want to learn the Ruy López, they need to get past this.

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If a teacher tries to teach you Calculus and your still stuck debating 8th grade math, Than it is pointless for the teacher to keep going.

People are arguing the Italian Game is more complex vs. Ruy López?

The Ruy López is more complex!

It’s not even comparable or debatable.

‘Ruy López wins by land slide - not even close.

I don’t know why people are trying to debate this issue.

It’s actually crazy to do so.

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@Post #21

Is the perfect example of what I been saying

Read what he said!

What he does would work against maybe 10 different Black lines.

Against the other 40 Black lines he will get completely destroyed.

This is the issue!

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Their isn’t a 1 size fits all middle game plan for white against these 50 different lines.

The lines have to be broken down and tackled 1 at a time.

What most people do or at least what I did was try to group as many lines as I could under 1 umbrella with similar middle game plan. Than group a different set of lines with different middle game plan.

Yeah no the Ruy Lopez is WAY more complicated.

@26

"the Italian Game is more complex vs. Ruy López"
++ Yes, it is. The position after 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bc4 Nf6 4 d3 Bc5 5 c3 is very complex to play for both sides.
On the contrary 1 e4 e5 2 Nf3 Nc6 3 Bb5 a6 4 Ba4 (or Bxc6) Nf6 5 O-O Be7 6 Bxc6 dxc6 is straightforward: white has a clear plan to capitalise on his better pawn structure while neutralising the bishop's pair.

@Post #28

You intentionally misquoted me and said nonsense in response.

It is intellectual dishonesty.

The Italian Game position you claim is “complex” has 70% draw rate and has no material imbalances.

The Ruy López position you claim is “straightforward” gives Black the bishop pair for structural damage.

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Furthermore, you can’t play the Delayed Exchange Variation against the Arch Angel Defense.

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. O-O b5 6. Bb3

Their is no 6.Bxc6 in that position

In addition, You can’t play the normal Exchange Variation against the Cozio Defense.

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nge7

4. Bxc6 would be terrible decision because Black will recapture with the Knight and White gives up Bishop pair with out inflicting pawn structure damage.

Subsequently, You can’t play the normal Exchange Variation against the Birds Defense either.

1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nd4

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Which means even if a person was to listen to you, they would still need to learn 3 different lines for white.

- They would have to know Exchange Variation.

- They would have to know a line to deal with Cozio Defense.

- They would have to know a line to deal with Bird Defense.

What if your opponent likes to play the Open Ruy Lopez and all of the subtle variations that come with it?

He mentioned that he likes to put his Pawns on c3 and d3. Which can be achieved with 1. e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 a6 4. Ba4 Nf6 5. d3! and you don't have to worry about the Open Spanish anymore. At least that is my preferred way to play the Ruy Lopez against the Morphy Defense (3. ...a6).

@29

"You can’t play the normal Exchange Variation against the Cozio Defense.
1.e4 e5 2. Nf3 Nc6 3. Bb5 Nge7" ++ It is subpar. Nge7 blocks the diagonal of Bf8.
White can play natural moves and get a good position.

"You can’t play the normal Exchange Variation against the Birds Defense either."
++ 3...Nd4 is subpar too. Black moves the same piece twice.
White can play naturally 4 Nxd4 and get a good position.

The Ruy Lopez is much more straightforward than the Italian: white can follow a clear plan and play natural moves.
The Italian is much more complicated.

@Post #32

Wow wow wow

Calling the Cozio Defense subpar?

Those are pretty strong claims your making right their Tygxc!

Their is a National Master (Youtuber) who loves the Cozio Defenses.

He recommends it to everyone!

Blocking in the Bishop is only temporary!

In his Candidates game Hikaru (vs. Nepo) played Nge7 only after he developed his dark squared Bishop to c5. I wouldn't really call this a Cozio Defense, but rather a Deferred Classical Defense (or some sort of hybrid).

Gukesh on the other hand played a proper Cozio Defense (again vs. Nepo).

The Cozio is playable, but I doubt that Hikaru (who almost exclusively plays the Berlin Defense) or Gukesh played like this, because they think it's critical. They just wanted to challenge Nepo's Ruy Lopez prep.

Gukesh played a deferred Cozio with a6.