Scandinavian Defense - Declined?!?

I dont think its necessarily a bad move for white. Ive seen it before, it usually transposes into the French Defence - Advance Variation after 2... e6 3.d4 .

If i would play black, i would play next 2...e6 or Nc6

Haven't seen that in my games, but I have seen worse Nf3 after d5

It's not really a mistake. I find this just allows you to transpose into the French defense with maybe c5 and e6.

As Black I've tried 2....Bf5 and it turns into a french defence where Black's QB is free. Probably =.   

The Essential Center Counter by IM Andrew Martin (Thinkers' Press Inc., Davenport IA, 2004), p.22::::

2...c5! Intending ...Nc6 and ...Bf5, or ...Bg4, followed by e7-e6. Black aims to get a very good French with his Bishop outside the pawn chain.

No, no no.

This move is very bad. To understand, look at the Caro-Kann advance variation. 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5

Classically, this was considered bad for white since black can develop the c8 bishop outside the pawn chain (with 3... Bf5). Thus, the "problem" bishop that black has in the French advance is no longer a problem. The tempo that black spends to achieve this (playing c6 and then generally a later c5) was not deemed as important, since the position was closed.

Then, in the early 80s, white found a lot of ways to complicate the position with 4.Nc3 e6 5.g4 Bg6. The so-called "Short" variation is also popular, where white plays Nf3, Be2, c3, and o-o in some order.

My whole point is that against the Scandinavian declined, black doesn't cost himself a tempo with c7-c6-c5, so the obvious move would be 2... Bf5. After developing this bishop, black can play the usual e6, and get on with his other development.

Other than watching out for a well-timed c4 by white, black should have no problems at all in this variation.

See my point above regarding c4 by white.

1.e4 d5 2.e5?! c5 3.c4

I don't know what this is, but it's not a French.

I agree that 2... c5 would be great if white just continues normally with Nf3, c3, and d4, because black would really like nothing better than to develop the c8 bishop on g4 in one move. I just don't like c4 by white.

Paul Keres played it when it he was 19 and lost quite methodically.

http://www.chess.com/games/view.html?id=25976

i dont think white can really play e5 at all and its not a good move if you want a win.   lets look at some openings with e4-e5 played:

1.e4 d5 2.e5 ? c5 !(Bf5!?)  black should be fine here .  i would say its better than the french cos there are more options available

1. e4 c5 f4 d5 ! e5 in this position i think blacks ok .. white has some space on the kingside but has to defend..

e4 e6 d4 d5 e5 again a similar position but the bishop is stuck on c8

 e4 nf6 e5 nd5 c4 nb6 d4 d6 ! this is a classic alekhine where white has some space but black is forced to  attack the center to gain an advantage.

play it against littlechesspartner:  it ALWAYS works.  of course, I'm the kind of player who likes big pawn centers, so it might not work for you.

lagoon49: you missed 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 Bf5

Where's Gonnosuke?

Folks, listen to ozzie.  It's not like it's a forced loss for White, but it gives Black immediate equality, and a very easy game.

Wow, thanks everyone & especially Ozzie.  I really appreciate the input!

I've seen this kind of error a lot in the sicilian as well. White plays a premature e5 in the c3 sicilian, with exactly the same consequences.

in theori black is best but it doesnt matter. white is winning most of the games:) if you face this against a better prepared player you are in trouble

Folks, this is a good example of how not to analyze a position.

When I was in a vote chess game, sometimes comments would come in like this, where people don't look at _any_ variations at all. They don't even look at what the ideas might be for both sides. Nothing.

In this case, the most direct comparison would be the Short Variation in the Caro-Kann advance, where the move c4 by white sometimes destroys black's position. I'm not saying that white is winning, but the problem is that black's setup is all geared up for white to play c3/d4, and black should be prepared if white doesn't do that.

Note: just playing pawns to e6, d5, and c5 does not constitute a "French" setup. It's kind of important for white to play d4. Maybe another comparable would be the KIA?

I was critical because you posted a general conclusion without posting any variations. It's a bad habit shared by many others.

I agree with your second post.

So the line is 1.e4 d5 2.e5?! c5 3.c4:

What does Black do about his d-pawn? His basic options are: (1) Exchange, (2) Nothing, (3) Gambit, (4) Advance, (5) Protect.

Exchange

3...dxc4?! (usually a bad idea with the bishop on f1)

4.Bxc4! (natural)

4...Nc6! (developing, threatening e5, preventing mate threats)

5.Nf3 (f4 is also interesting)

And now:

5...f6? 6.exf6 Nxf6 - Both sides have isolanis, but Black's king is in the center and airy which gives White the advantage.

5...e6! 6.O-O - This is French-like. White has more space and better bishops, but Black is already well on his way to undermining the center. I think Black is at least equal.

Nothing

Does maintaining the tension benefit Black? These lines are trickier, but with careful play I think he emerges even better.

3...Nc6 (4.cxd5? Qxd5! 5.Nc3 Qxe5)

4.Nf3 (protecting e5. As before, f4 is also interesting.)

4...Bg4! 5.cxd5 Qxd5 6.Nc3 Qd7 7.Bb5! a6 8.Bxc6 Qxc6 9.h3 Bxf3 10.Qxf3 Qxf3 11.gxf3 - Black's better due to his superior pawn structure.

Conclusion: I think even after 3.c4, Black can look forward to a good game. Although this is an original idea and more interesting than what is usually played. :)

I didn't explore other options--this is enough to say Black is at least equal. But some general thoughts on the other options:

* Gambit looks silly--Black can't leave pawns sitting on e5/d5--that concedes too much space and give his knights problems developing.

* ...e6 transposes to a French. White must be slightly better (and he's probably, although not certainly, side-stepped Black's preparation).

* ...d4!? - looks interesting. It's a bizarre pawn formation, but Black's chain is harder to undermine than White's chain. Black should be fine.

Criticisms welcome. I just thought it was an interesting position.