Forums

Sharp openings

Sort:
Avatar of congrandolor
congrandolor
Apr 25, 2020
0
#41

If you want fun you can play this:

 

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#42
Dsmith42 wrote:

@ThrillerFan - The Owen Defense is not weak, it's just played wrong by most folks who employ it, because they don't properly mind the weakness at b5 (which can be managed).  John Owen beat Paul Morphy, Adolf Anderssen, and Wilhelm Steinitz with it.  Safe to assume it is sound.

Most importantly, I qualified this with a set of warnings, which your referenced game does not follow.  The whole point is that e6 must be played first (before b6), and that c5 must not be played too soon.  Your opponent failed to heed both of these.

The idea is to "bait" the e4/d4 pawn center with the look of a French Defense (1. e4 e6), then to transpose into the Owen after 2. d4 b6.  Failing to play e6 denied your opponent the ability to fix the d4 pawn (I'd never let you get a pawn to d6), which made the c5 thrust particularly suspect.  As Nimzowitsch teaches us, a target must be fixed in place before it can be destroyed!

Try reading the whole post, and then try to UNDERSTAND why each of the warnings are important.  I've played this against very strong players, including those at your level in tournament play, and my results are just fine.  Certainly better results than I got playing the Sicilian, Petroff's, or the Nimzowitsch defenses, all of which I've tried against 1. ..e4.

 

Second point, there is no different in principle between a transposed Owen and the English Defense.  In both cases, it's the d4 pawn which is your target.  Fix it, and that's what the combined action of the b6 and e6 thrusts is designed to do, then develop your light square bishop!

ANY OPENING IS BAD if you don't understand its underlying premises.  Despite your opponent's high rating, it is clear that he didn't understand the Owen Defense, and had no hope of playing it effectively.

 

You might be able to argue allowing d6, but your whole 1...e6 vs 1...b6 is hogwash.  I voluntarily played 2.d4 against 1...b6?? And always will, and NEVER will an early c4 come from me against that hogwash.

Also, he played ...e6 long before I ever played d5, so again your theory is garbage!  If Black ever plays ...d5 himself, I will play e5 and you will have a bad French, having wasted time fianchettoing your light squared bishop.

Yes, allowing d6+ was bad, but Black is in trouble anyway.

There are 2 mistakes that White often makes in the Owen Defense (especially after 1.d4 b6).

1) DO NOT push c4.  Against 1.d4, here it makes sense to play 1...e6.  If 2.e4, then 2...d5 and if 2.c4, only then b6.  The weakening of both d4 and the a5-e1 diagonal (for ...Bb4) are important!  After 1.e4 b6? Or 1.d4 b6?, do not advance the c-pawn!

 

2. DO NOT play an early f3.  This is a sucker move and leads to numerous tactics available to Black on e4 combined with ...Qh4+ ideas.

 

White should play e4 and d4 - does not matter which comes first - if Black is dumb enough to play 1...b6.  Bd3 to follow, not committing yet to Nc3 or c3.  Nf3, Queen will usually go to e2, castle Kingside, and what Black does drives Nc3 vs c3 and Nbd2.

 

And as for your victory claims, that was the 1800s.  Nobody knew 1...b6 theory back then.  Find me a legit post-1980 world champion (the computer era) that lost to 1...b6 while a GM.  Karpov lost to 1...a6, not 1...b6, against Miles.  Not saying 1...a6 is good either, bad game by Karpov.

 

Owen's Defense is garbage!  Only time to play 1...b6 is against 1.c4 and only time to play 1...e6 followed by 2...b6 is 1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6.  It is all about weakening that diagonal a5-e1 which in turn weakens e4 as the Knight will be pinned upon arrival, even if it goes to d2, as long as c2-c4 has been played!

 

This should also point out the counter to your last claim of no difference between the English Defense and Owen's Defense!  They are LIGHT YEARS DIFFERENT!  The advanced c-pawn's negative effect on d4 and e4 (the latter due to the a5-e1 diagonal and the ineffective Queen's Knight, removing a defender of e4 with a piece that can never directly control e4, giving Black light square dominance.

 

Saying the Owen and English Defenses are no different are like saying the Pirc and Kings Indian are no different!  They are VASTLY different due to that c-pawn.   Pirc you go for b7-b5-b4 to kick the Knight and go for e4, like in the English Defense.  Kings Indian the d4 square is weak and Black attacks and controls the dark squares.

 

You have got it all wrong if you really thing Owen's and English defenses are the same thing.

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#43

And just to prove the criticality of that a5-e1 diagonal in your b6 strategy, even the English Defense has been questioned of late as they are having trouble finding a good way to take advantage of White's wasted move in the 3.a3 line (1.d4 e6 2.c4 b6 3.a3) that most are now suggesting going to the English Hedgehog with 3...c5 and have White prove he has not lost time with that a3 move rather than going for f5 ideas like in the normal English Defense.

 

So yes, with White often going out of his way to play 3.a3 just shows how critical that a5-e1 diagonal is in these lines!  Not advancing the c-pawn does not give White this problem, and just continues to show that Owen's Defense is less sound than the English Defense!

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
NM darkunorthodox88
Apr 25, 2020
0
#44
ThrillerFan wrote:
Dsmith42 wrote:

@Gramps4

I would highly recommend the Owen Defense.  It's sharp, you get both bishops mobile (which is a problem in the French Defense), and it can be effectively played against both 1. e4 and 1. d4.

Three warnings -

First, don't play b6 immediately, only AFTER playing e6 first.  With any luck, they'll think you're looking to play the French Defense (if 1. e4) or a Semi-slav (if 1. d4), and be perplexed after 2. ..b6.

Second, the Owen is VERY SHARP, you are fighting for the center right from the beginning.  The idea is to fix and destroy white's pawn at d4, and to force white to either open the long diagonal for your light square bishop, trade light square bishops (which is usually good for black), or impede his own kingside defense (usually with a move like f3 to support the otherwise-weak e4 pawn).

Third, there is no good book study on its various lines, so you'll have to work them out yourself.  What little book there is, namely Staunton's suggestion of an early c7-c5 is wrong.  The pawn thrust you are preparing for is d7-d5, and you need the c-pawn back to kick out a white knight which might want to occupy b5.

Takes a while to figure out all the lines, but it is solid against everyone I play, who are mostly in the 1800-2000 range rating-wise.

 

Owen's Defense is not surprising.  It is simply weak, and the strategy you recommend simply results in a bad French for Black.  White should answer ...d5 with e5!  You run a big risk of being blasted on the Kingside while doing nothing on the Queenside (the difference between the French and Owens).

 

The early b6-systems only work when White has played c4 (English Defense, Queen's Indian, etc) or e3 (Colle, London, etc).  Lines with e4 and d4 with no c4 are a problem for Black.  d4 is weaker when c4 has been played.

man, this is just not true. The french structures are hardly bad frenches, considering white has already committed a lot of his pieces to sub-par squares, (nf3 vs ne2, queen on e2 isnt that great since black can virtually force ba6 if he insists etc)

you are not gonna blasted on the kingside, because you are not castle there of course! you have to watch the kingside because that's where forces "point" forward, same with black on the queenside.

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
NM darkunorthodox88
Apr 25, 2020
0
#45

You should pick up Christian Bauer's book on b6 to learn how to properly play most of these French Owen lines, because "its garbage bruh" is not gotta cut it here. Show a line you think is terrible for black. The worst i have seen from these lines is that black takes a little longer to equalize than with other black defenses, but black is going for a total clamp, of course equalizing take a bit longer to dissolve first move advantage

But b6 is NOT a sharp opening. Its highly positional in style and favors those that like cramped positional manuevering and long delayed pawn thrusts and breaks. 

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#46
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

You should pick up Christian Bauer's book on b6 to learn how to properly play most of these French Owen lines, because "its garbage bruh" is not gotta cut it here. Show a line you think is terrible for black. The worst i have seen from these lines is that black takes a little longer to equalize than with other black defenses, but black is going for a total clamp, of course equalizing take a bit longer to dissolve first move advantage

But b6 is NOT a sharp opening. Its highly positional in style and favors those that like cramped positional manuevering and long delayed pawn thrusts and breaks. 

 

Uhm, I own that book!

From your first post, the Knight is not better on e3 in the French except in the closed Tarrasch.  Notice in my latest post, I delay Nc3 vs c3 until Black commits.  White gets a favorable advance French, a line which the Knight does go to f3!

 

That Bauer book is full of White wins and non-white wins with huge errors by White.  White plays "correct" and Black is in huge trouble.  Black does horrible in the 1.d4 b6 2.c4 e6 3.a3 lines except where Black abandons English defense strategy and goes for the hedgehog.  The Owen's games don't show the reality of the problem.  I have yet to see a Bauer book impress me at all.  I put him in the same category as Tim Taylor (not quite as low as Schiller).

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#47

And I have never said "It's garbage bruh".  What the hell is "bruh" anyway?  Are you trying to say "bro" and just sound stupid?

 

I don't speak any of the digital generation snapchat slang or millenial talk or ebonics.  I speak American English!

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
NM darkunorthodox88
Apr 25, 2020
0
#48
ThrillerFan wrote:

And I have never said "It's garbage bruh".  What the hell is "bruh" anyway?  Are you trying to say "bro" and just sound stupid?

 

I don't speak any of the digital generation snapchat slang or millenial talk or ebonics.  I speak American English!

so, not english XD

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#49
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:

And I have never said "It's garbage bruh".  What the hell is "bruh" anyway?  Are you trying to say "bro" and just sound stupid?

 

I don't speak any of the digital generation snapchat slang or millenial talk or ebonics.  I speak American English!

so, not english XD

 

What the hell is XD?  "Xtreme-Def"?  Like High-Definition TVs?

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#50
ThrillerFan wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:

And I have never said "It's garbage bruh".  What the hell is "bruh" anyway?  Are you trying to say "bro" and just sound stupid?

 

I don't speak any of the digital generation snapchat slang or millenial talk or ebonics.  I speak American English!

so, not english XD

 

What the hell is XD?  "Xtreme-Def"?  Like High-Definition TVs?

 

I just looked up XD and it is the acronym for Transvestite or "Cross Dresser".

Uhm, NO!, I do not talk dirty to other men that are cross-dressed as women.  You go enjoy your own life.  Guess you are pretty Dark and Unorthodox!

I am the wrong person if you are looking for a "bruh".

Avatar of keep1teasy
keep1teasy
Apr 25, 2020
0
#51

its a laughing face... somone closes their eyes (the X) while laughing (the D)

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
NM darkunorthodox88
Apr 25, 2020
0
#52
ThrillerFan wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

You should pick up Christian Bauer's book on b6 to learn how to properly play most of these French Owen lines, because "its garbage bruh" is not gotta cut it here. Show a line you think is terrible for black. The worst i have seen from these lines is that black takes a little longer to equalize than with other black defenses, but black is going for a total clamp, of course equalizing take a bit longer to dissolve first move advantage

But b6 is NOT a sharp opening. Its highly positional in style and favors those that like cramped positional manuevering and long delayed pawn thrusts and breaks. 

 

Uhm, I own that book!

From your first post, the Knight is not better on e3 in the French except in the closed Tarrasch.  Notice in my latest post, I delay Nc3 vs c3 until Black commits.  White gets a favorable advance French, a line which the Knight does go to f3!

 

That Bauer book is full of White wins and non-white wins with huge errors by White.  White plays "correct" and Black is in huge trouble.  Black does horrible in the 1.d4 b6 2.c4 e6 3.a3 lines except where Black abandons English defense strategy and goes for the hedgehog.  The Owen's games don't show the reality of the problem.  I have yet to see a Bauer book impress me at all.  I put him in the same category as Tim Taylor (not quite as low as Schiller).

Show me a line that terrifies you for black. Bauer's book is pretty good but not complete, Lakdawala covers some of the omissions but not all. 4.a3 is your big concern? a line that just transposes to a mainstream petrosian QID? black can play 4.f5 but i prefer the former.

not true. The lines that most closely resemble the french owen are some lines in the french where black plays early b6 to get rid of the problem bishop, where the critical line is ne2!, the knight on f3 blocks the necessary counterplay thats often vital later via f4-f5. Qe2 is the preferred square because white doesnt have to commit a knight or the f pawn too early,but it also enables ba6 to snatch the bishop since bd3-qe2-r on f1 after 0-0 are lined up.

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
NM darkunorthodox88
Apr 25, 2020
0
#53

im surprised you dont think "email" is the name of a french coworker XD

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#54
SNUDOO wrote:

its a laughing face... somone closes their eyes (the X) while laughing (the D)

What the bleep?

What ever happened to:

LOL

ROFL

ROFLMAO

:-D - Laugh

;-D - Laugh and Wink

:-) - Smile or Smirk

:-P - Tongue stuck out at you

 

Etc 

 

Even when you close your eyes, they look nothing like an X.

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
NM darkunorthodox88
Apr 25, 2020
0
#55
ThrillerFan wrote:
SNUDOO wrote:

its a laughing face... somone closes their eyes (the X) while laughing (the D)

What the bleep?

What ever happened to:

LOL

ROFL

ROFLMAO

:-D - Laugh

;-D - Laugh and Wink

:-) - Smile or Smirk

:-P - Tongue stuck out at you

 

Etc 

 

Even when you close your eyes, they look nothing like an X.

you must be really really REALLY old.i think i was using XD when i was in high school a decade ago

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
NM darkunorthodox88
Apr 25, 2020
0
#56

wanna play a game with this owen line? i will play it as black. It wont be definite but may prove illuminating. I know you are pretty strong Thriller

Avatar of darkunorthodox88
NM darkunorthodox88
Apr 25, 2020
0
#57

not enough anime in your life i see


Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#58
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
darkunorthodox88 wrote:

You should pick up Christian Bauer's book on b6 to learn how to properly play most of these French Owen lines, because "its garbage bruh" is not gotta cut it here. Show a line you think is terrible for black. The worst i have seen from these lines is that black takes a little longer to equalize than with other black defenses, but black is going for a total clamp, of course equalizing take a bit longer to dissolve first move advantage

But b6 is NOT a sharp opening. Its highly positional in style and favors those that like cramped positional manuevering and long delayed pawn thrusts and breaks. 

 

Uhm, I own that book!

From your first post, the Knight is not better on e3 in the French except in the closed Tarrasch.  Notice in my latest post, I delay Nc3 vs c3 until Black commits.  White gets a favorable advance French, a line which the Knight does go to f3!

 

That Bauer book is full of White wins and non-white wins with huge errors by White.  White plays "correct" and Black is in huge trouble.  Black does horrible in the 1.d4 b6 2.c4 e6 3.a3 lines except where Black abandons English defense strategy and goes for the hedgehog.  The Owen's games don't show the reality of the problem.  I have yet to see a Bauer book impress me at all.  I put him in the same category as Tim Taylor (not quite as low as Schiller).

Show me a line that terrifies you for black. Bauer's book is pretty good but not complete, Lakdawala covers some of the omissions but not all. 4.a3 is your big concern? a line that just transposes to a mainstream petrosian QID? black can play 4.f5 but i prefer the former.

not true. The lines that most closely resemble the french owen are some lines in the french where black plays early b6 to get rid of the problem bishop, where the critical line is ne2!, the knight on f3 blocks the necessary counterplay thats often vital later via f4-f5. Qe2 is the preferred square because white doesnt have to commit a knight or the f pawn too early,but it also enables ba6 to snatch the bishop since bd3-qe2-r on f1 after 0-0 are lined up.

 

Let's see.  You claim e6 must be played.  Therefore, Game 15, 15.Bxb3 cxb3 16.f5 exf5 17.Qxf5 d5 18.e5 f6 and now not only is 19.e6 better for White, which he claims unclear (page 40 column 2 near the top), but 19.Nxb3 fxe5 20.Qe6+ Kh8 21.Be3 is also clearly better for White in all lines.  For example, 21...Bd6 22.dxe5 Bxe5 and both 23.h3 and 23.Qh3 are +/- (Above .7, below 1.4, by computer assessment).

 

Notice White follows everything I said.  Delay c3 vs Nc3 until determined what Black is doing.  No f3.  Clear Advantage White!

Avatar of ThrillerFan
ThrillerFan
Apr 25, 2020
0
#59
darkunorthodox88 wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:
SNUDOO wrote:

its a laughing face... somone closes their eyes (the X) while laughing (the D)

What the bleep?

What ever happened to:

LOL

ROFL

ROFLMAO

:-D - Laugh

;-D - Laugh and Wink

:-) - Smile or Smirk

:-P - Tongue stuck out at you

 

Etc 

 

Even when you close your eyes, they look nothing like an X.

you must be really really REALLY old.i think i was using XD when i was in high school a decade ago

 

High school a decade ago?  You are a youngster!  Millenial!  I am not a millenial!  I am Gen X (1961-1978), and will be 45 in 11 days.  High school for me was 1989 to 1993!  You were probably in diapers when I graduated!  Email and the Internet were all the rage when I was in college.  We did not have remote control TVs until I was about 8 to 10 and even then, the remote had a cord!

 

We do not get spoon fed and expect everything to be handed to us on a silver platter like Millenials and the Digital Generation.  Our daughter was born 2010 and her behavior and level of laziness is horrible!  Kids these days along with those in their 20s do not know what hard work really is!

Avatar of keep1teasy
keep1teasy
Apr 25, 2020
0
#60

well i mean considering that one has more to learn now because there's more information about everything... some people, yes lazy (like me). But others are not.