Sicilian Defense: Alapin Variation, Barmen Defense

Hi, I'm just looking for some discussion/information on the Barmen Defense in the Sicilian Alapin, especially from the black side. I can't find much using google, despite this being a pretty common opening. What are black's main ideas? I've been using this opening as black and liking it but I'd like to read up on it some. Any thoughts, information, or even games would be appreciated 

It made Opening of the Day back in 2010 so there are 3 pages of discussion here to get you started:

http://www.chess.com/opening/eco/B22_Sicilian_Defense_Alapin_Variation_Barmen_Defense

Thanks - I did find that page but most of the discussion on it is not so helpful

Best way to get a good forum response is to post an annotated diagram.  There have been several lively Alapin threads lately so I'm pretty sure you'll get responses if you do that.

http://www.chess.com/forum/search?keyword=how+to+post+a+diagram

Why do you think Nf6 is better???? It seems so hard to grab any advantage as black in any line against the Alapin. If I could ban any opening from being played I would ban the Alapin for sure. Yes it is early in the game but if Hikaru Nakamura forced you to say something about the d5 line at gunpoint what would you say?

Yes I wonder why there are so many differing and often little-known names for variations. What is the point of playing ...d5? I guess it's that white's pawn is on c3 so he can't immediately tempo your queen away. And you may end up giving white and isolated queen pawn which could be an asset or a weakness. And, putting the queen in the middle of the board that early in the game is a good way to disrespect and intimidate the opponent. But this is just me guessing - I would like to hear what you think of this so-called "Barmen Defense"

But what would you say to him

2...d5 is just a center based move, probably sounder than say 1.e4 d5 because nc3 is not available for time being. Two main plans for white. One trying to use the queen side pawn majority after d4xc5, the other isolated queen pawn positions after black eventually plays c5xd4. In the first plan, it is most typical for black to respond with sacing a pawn for active play with Qd5xQch,KxQ. Pallister thinks there is an exception in the position after 1.e4 c5 2c3 d5 3pxp Qxp 4d4 Nf6 5d4xc5, when it is ok for black to play 5...Qxc5 because the queen's knight hasn't moved. For example 6Be3 Qc7 7Na3 a6 8Nc4 Nd7. There is similar pawn structure in Rubinstein French, and other French lines. 

It seem like a  good alternative against Alapin.

Actually it's IM Pallister's analysis in Fighting the anti-sicilians book. He might well have used software, doesn't look that necessary here. If 6Na3 a6. Sometime's black can play e6 with very sold rubinstein french structure, other's g6, Bg7. It looks very difficult for white to get anywhere with his purely peice play. He thinks, for a change that 5...QxQch 6KxQ e5 isn't convincing, suggests Nc6 then Bf5 for rapid development. This actually transposes to lines quite a few titled players don't find convincing for black. So from theoretical point of view white should wait for d4xc5 because Qxc5 is equal. There might still be practical problems for black, because the resulting positions are quite flat, difficult for black to out play a lower rated player. There are these queen side pawn majority endgames from the tarrasch french line 1e4 e6 2d4 d5 3Nd2 c5 4pxp Qxp. They are fairly mapped out how black should play them. Seem easier to play for black if anything. Certainly would think, if an opponent could beat me playing this way, would likely beat me in any line, i.e they are just a much stronger player.

No it's not discussed much, just one small paragraph. Got interested in it because 5...QxQ 6KxQ didn't seem easy for black. 

Very good discussion and explanation, thank you kind and skilled gentlemen... I am currently in a small town with one dot of phone service but I will likely explore the opening books and come back with a few things once I can make head and tail of what's been said :)

One impression I get from looking through the opening explorer is that the 2. ...Nf6 lines are more likely to lead to imbalanced and interesting games, and also offer better chances to the player who know the theory better. Whereas the 2. ...d5 stuff is a little more boring and balanced and it's not easy to punish the other guy even if you know the theory. Does that seem right?

I'm also pretty sure that the Nf6 lines are something you can play against the Smith-Morra gambit but black doesn't usually try to hold the extra pawn in those lines so I might not be interested in using it against Smith-Morra

Hmmm I see. Seems like one of black's best ideas in the d5 lines to further imbalance the game and test white's opening knowledge is to fianchetto the dark bishop early (as Carlsen does in the game I posted above)

I can't really say why but I like the d5 lines better - I've been having some success with it and it seems to suit me better, so I think I'll stick with it. However this whole discussion was very insightful

It does do pretty well in practice for black. How would it give black more problems? The bishop's diagonal will be pretty open

Must not criticize Master Carlsen, he might curse us

I can find almost no lines in the opening explorer involving b6 - around which move is black looking to play b6?

HMMMM maybe I should just listen to you and learn the Nf6 stuff. Idk, learning is harder than posting in forums xD

The line with 2...Nf6 and b6 was recommended by Gallagher in his "Beating the anti-sicilians" book in the 90's. Theoretically not in great shape these days, because of attacking lines for white with Ng5. When I played it worked well for me, something like seven unaswered wins, but my opponent's wern't very strong less than FIDE 1700. Club players playing 2c3 don't tend to be good at the ambitious attacking chess needed to show the dubious side of b6 approach.

Don't find g6 with 2...d5 very natural myself, but think GM rep 6 covers it.