Sicilian Defense Alpine Variation - Chess Forums - Page 2

Freiberg · 2015-11-26T18:53:44-08:00

As I just started to study the Sicilian Defense, I find it quiet difficult to find solid ground.In the database I found three variaions which are commonly played. Nr.1 : 1 e4 c5, 2.c3 Nf6Nr.2 : 1 e4 c5, 2.c3 g6Nr.3 : 1 e4 c5, 2.c3 b6I personaly prefer the first two more than nr.3.But I am ques

IM pfren

Dec 3, 2015

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#21

The Alpine variation is clearly inferior to the Kilimanjaro attack.

FM Rumo75

Dec 3, 2015

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#22

Fiveofswords hat geschrieben:

I dont know about rating french lines by dangerousness...im not a fan of nc3 anyway in the french and if anything it seems to just hand black strong queenside counterplay frankly.

Sure, 3.Nc3 isn't everyone's cup of tea, and the Tarrasch is a good and very respectable positional approach against the French. But any theoretician as well as any French player of a decent level will tell you that 3.Nc3 is most dangerous, and the fact that it's the main move among high level guys should also confirm this.

FM Rumo75

Dec 3, 2015

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#23

Fiveofswords hat geschrieben:

Rumo75 wrote:

Yes, of course it's an independent type of French Exchange. White probably has slightly better practical chances to pose problems for black than in the regular French Exchange.

Anyway, no matter what you call it, it's theoretically sound. And if you prefer not to call it a French, then your statement "obviously if black wanted the french he wouldve played the french" makes even less sense than before.

white can and often does transpose directly to a french. He doesnt have to. You offer that choice to white. So you have to be ok with playing black in the french in case white chooses that path. You also have to be ok with white's reasonable options. This is all with the understood fact that you started out playing the sicilian. That is all. It makes total sense.

White can have a French Advance and a (type of) French Exchange. Not a French of his choice. Yes, that makes total sense if you prefer this equality to the equality in the 2...Nf6 or the 2...d5. Where's your problem with that?

aliboron

Dec 3, 2015

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#24

Fiveofswords a écrit :

actually there are only 2 main 2nd moves for black: nf6 and d5. after 2...nf6 3 e5 nd5 is the only contiunuation you will see with high level chess.

Hi all,

What about 2.../Nç6 before 3.../Nf6. Seems to be an important option.

kingsrook11

Dec 3, 2015

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#25

Fiveofswords wrote:

2...e6 is fine for black but he has to be ready for more than jsut the french advance. white can transpose to that if he wants, or he can go into a position mroe like a tarrasch eliskes variation, or he can go for an interesting Be3/qf3 line. Anyway not many people are familiar with both french and sicilian theory from blakc perspective.

Fiveofswords, I am glad to see you still mentioning playing the Tarrasch. But, where is thrillerfan to respond? I am especially awaiting his response as FM Rumo75 description of the Tarrasch as 'a good and very respectable positional approach against the French'

aliboron

Dec 3, 2015

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#26

Fiveofswords a écrit :

Hi all,

What about 2.../Nç6 before 3.../Nf6. Seems to be an important option.

2...nc6 is a poor option. You can do it, but if you want to even try for equality you are absolutely forced into transposing into a position that could come from 2...d5. If you neglect this transposition you are either going to wind up in a totally lost situation from d5 pushes from white down the road, or Na3-nb5 tricks that would normally be parried by some na6 from black, etc.

Thanks for your comments :)

X_PLAYER_J_X

Dec 3, 2015

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#27

@Fiveofswords

I saved our commentary the day we played those games and I added it to the article.

http://www.chess.com/blog/X_PLAYER_J_X/contender-series-14

Game 4 is exactly what this forum is about!

Yeah It seems as if my instincts were correct.

The engine believes Black has compensation.

I knew there was compensation.

It is obvious the OP of this thread should play 2...e6

The Killer move!

X_PLAYER_J_X

Dec 3, 2015

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#28

The critical test of the Alapin!

FM Rumo75

Dec 3, 2015

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#29

Well, maybe theoreticians and world-class players who have a different view on 3.Nc3 see something that you don't. Anyway, regarding 2...e6, sure, some knowledge of theory is required, just as with playing any other good move against the Alapin. You need to pick a line against the French Advance, I would suggest 5...Qb6 or 5...Bd7 and study the critical lines. Apart from that: Basic knowledge of IQP positions that any chess player needs to have and some ideas about how to fight against that line with 5.Be3 c4 6.b3. Sure, none of those is a Sicilian type position, but the same is true for 2...Nf6 and 2...d5. There is no way of Sicilian-type positions emerging from the Alapin.

X_PLAYER_J_X

Dec 3, 2015

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#30

Rumo75 wrote:

Regarding 2...g6 I rather agree with you. I've been playing this move for almost 15 years before finally giving up on it. White has several ways to a safe += advantage. Most simple in my view is 3.d4 cd 4.cd d5 5.e5 Bg7 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be2 Bg4 8.Nbd2. Even more unpleasant in my view are Morra-like approaches, white omitting cxd4 in favour of quick development (Nf3, Bc4, 0-0). g6 isn't particularly good against the Morra.

That said, I also think that 2...g6 is perfectly playable. It's just a second rate line, not quite sufficient for equality. Against the Alapin black has three safe equalizers at his disposal, so it doesn't make much sense to me (anymore) to give him various options for a good position.

Speaking of the 2...g6 line.

I have seen some IM's games were they have played the move Nh6.

Have you used this idea as well?

FM Rumo75

Dec 3, 2015

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#31

X_PLAYER_J_X hat geschrieben:

Rumo75 wrote:

Regarding 2...g6 I rather agree with you. I've been playing this move for almost 15 years before finally giving up on it. White has several ways to a safe += advantage. Most simple in my view is 3.d4 cd 4.cd d5 5.e5 Bg7 6.Nf3 Nc6 7.Be2 Bg4 8.Nbd2. Even more unpleasant in my view are Morra-like approaches, white omitting cxd4 in favour of quick development (Nf3, Bc4, 0-0). g6 isn't particularly good against the Morra.

That said, I also think that 2...g6 is perfectly playable. It's just a second rate line, not quite sufficient for equality. Against the Alapin black has three safe equalizers at his disposal, so it doesn't make much sense to me (anymore) to give him various options for a good position.

Speaking of the 2...g6 line.

I have seen some IM's games were they have played the move Nh6.

Have you used this idea as well?

Actually I have played this move-order countless times. The knight is supposed to be placed on f5 after Bc8-g4. If white doesn't know what he's doing, he is quite likely to lose the d4 pawn, for example after 6...Bg7 7.Nf3 Bg4 8.Be2 Nf5 9.0-0 e6 10.h3? f6 11.exf6 Qxf6. One way to preempt this is simply playing 7.h3. Another is the one I mentioned above, to keep the queenside knight on b1 and answer Bc8-g4 with Nbd2. White has some space advantage and black lacks serious counterplay.

drawingdroidfish

Dec 3, 2015

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#32

pfren wrote:

The Alpine variation is clearly inferior to the Kilimanjaro attack.

Is that 2.e5

drawingdroidfish

Dec 3, 2015

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#33

There is a new book "Opening Originals" with a chapter (18 pages) devoted to 2...Qa5!? against the Alapin. I remember seeing this at the board next to mine at one tournament, and wondering, as an on-again/off-again Alapin-player, how I would respond. I settled on 3.Na3, I believe 1) it meets the requirements of the position, or at least presents Black with some problems to solve and 2) it "surprises the surpriser".

If I recall correctly it was at that tournament where I defeated an A-player who tried 2...g6 against my Alapin, however, and despite everything written in this thread, I have never liked facing that line. I had the game score handy about a month ago but have since moved, but I do remember that I delayed Nf3, playing Be2 first, and when he played ...Nh6 I responded g4?! My engine hates it (or at least thinks it throws away a decent advantage and is merely equal) but I really think it dis-concerted him and within a half-dozen or ten moves he blundered away the exchange.

chess_player_980

Dec 3, 2015

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#34

nope

drawingdroidfish

Dec 3, 2015

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#35

Fiveofswords wrote:

you might not like facing g6 but apparently your performance with it is not bad. Which doesnt surprise me. Even if white plays dubious moves its still quite possible for black to get in trouble. Because the downside to handing your opponent a strong central space advantage and the long term mobility this gives is something that simply doesnt go away for many moves. I dont know what bothers you about it though...do you also have issues vs the modern defense? Because the sort of stuff black does is quite similar in both but I feel the modern is potentially more difficult for white becuase black has not committed to c5.

Good guess -- no I don't like facing the Modern.

PS, got an email reply, and in his book, Lowinger investigates 3.b4!? against 2...Qa5

IM pfren

Dec 3, 2015

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#36

Fiveofswords wrote:

i mentioned the qa5 line in passing earlier and i still think its basically an unsound way to jsut attempt to annoy white. Your na3 response is something i noted my computer likes but I really do not understand it. Personally i just play into blacks devious plans and go ahead with d4, and im perfectly happy to sac a pawn if black plays cd and continue with simply nf3. Note that the same position could arise from a smith mora gambit if black plays the rather illogical and dubious Qa5.

If things were that simple, then parcheesi would be much more difficult that chess.

Black does not allow by ...Qa5 a normal Morra, 4.Nf3?! isn't achieving much after 4...Nf6 when neither 5.Bd3, nor 5.e5 dxc3! 6.Nxc3 Ne4 achieve much.

White's best is most probably Esserman's suggestion 4.Bd2.

VibrantMoves

Dec 3, 2015

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#37

I think you can throw any opening preparations in a trash can at the moment and focus on tactical puzzles instead.

ChessPlayinDude47

Dec 3, 2015

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#38

Hell, I wish it was an Alpine Variation! Try Ernest Bloch - Paysages - second movement: Alpestre for that. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6mkI1TExQU.

Seems what we're looking at here is an Alapin, not an Alpine.

Freiberg

Dec 5, 2015

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#39

Ziggy_Zugzwang wrote:

Someone recently murdered a few people with boxes of these. It turned out they were a cereal killer...

thats hilarious

FM Rumo75

Dec 6, 2015

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#40

Fiveofswords hat geschrieben:

Rumo75 wrote:

Well, maybe theoreticians and world-class players who have a different view on 3.Nc3 see something that you don't. Anyway, regarding 2...e6, sure, some knowledge of theory is required, just as with playing any other good move against the Alapin. You need to pick a line against the French Advance, I would suggest 5...Qb6 or 5...Bd7 and study the critical lines. Apart from that: Basic knowledge of IQP positions that any chess player needs to have and some ideas about how to fight against that line with 5.Be3 c4 6.b3. Sure, none of those is a Sicilian type position, but the same is true for 2...Nf6 and 2...d5. There is no way of Sicilian-type positions emerging from the Alapin.

as far as world class theory is concerned i dont think there is anyone more of a french expert than mickey adams and he plays the tarrasch. he also was rather fond of the alapin coincidentally.

I am sure that if the theory of multiple universes is correct, one can be found in which Michael Adams is the leading expert in the French Defense.