Sokolsky Anyone?

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ThrillerFan
chesskingdreamer wrote:
ThrillerFan wrote:

As one that has played the Sokolsky a good 100 to 200 times as White in Over the Board competition, here's how to look at the b-pawn:

1) Against 1...e5, don't protect it.  Attack the e-pawn.  After 1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 Bxb4 (Black's best try at equalizing) 3.Bxe5 Nf6 4.c4 (the other option is 4.e3/5.Nf3 going for fast development but completely relinquishing the center to Black), White gave up a wing pawn for a center pawn with an open diagonal for his Bishop.  

 

According to all top engines after 3.Bxe5 Nf6, white is around -0.1 to -0.3 worse. Let's try to understand why:

1) Black has two pieces developed to white's one. In addition, white's bishop on e5 will have to lose another tempo.

2) In the upcoming middlegame, white lacks a plan. Black's development is comparably easier and he has strong central pieces and can occupy the center with pieces (Nf6, Re8) or pawns (c5,d5).

What does white have going for him? Not much, really. But he's more solid and has the open long diagonal which he can use to his benefit. There is no reason why white should be better.

Just didn't really understand the terminology of "black's best try at equalizing." If anyone's equalizing, it should be white.

1.b4 isn't the way to go for an advantage, anyway. 1.b3 is much better.

IM title or no IM title, I am going to counter what you just said 100%

 

You, an IM, of all people, should know that engines are clueless at evaluating any position after 3 moves!  I don't care whether those moves are 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 or 1.a4 g5 2.Nc3 g4 3.Na2 Nh6, engines are clueless at evaluating these positions!

Secondly, even database statistics aren't always valid either.  You've got average rating of players, and number of games.  There's more validity statistically in a line with 45,000 games than in a line with 200 games.  If you went strictly on Database percentages, White scores 90% after 1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 Bxb4 3.Bxe5 Nf6 4.h3!! on 365chess.com.  I think we all know that you can't expect a 90% score from that position as White.

Thirdly, How can you possibly claim database validity when the percentages jump around just based on rating?  And it's not like lower rated is always better!  Take the database at ChessTempo.  The position after 1.b4 e5 2.Bb2 Bxb4 3.Bxe5 Nf6.  Now consider the following.  Let's just look at White's 2 main options.  4.Nf3 and 4.c4

If you restrict the database to players over 2200 (both sides), you have 119 games combined, White's performance rating is lower than his average rating in both cases (4.Nf3 and 4.c4), and Black scores roughly 54 to 55 percent in both lines.  (Black's win percentage plus half the draw percentage = Black's total percent score)

But now let's restrict it to even stronger players.  2400 or above for both players.  We see White scoring in the mid-50s after 4.Nf3 and upper-50s after 4.c4.  White's performance rating in both cases are well above their average rating, 50 points above after 4.Nf3 and about 80 points above after 4.c4.

Go to games where Both playes are over 2500 and suddenly Black is 3 and 0!  100% score for Black, but just like the 5 games of 4.h3 in 365chess.com scoring 90% for White, the validity is almost zero with only 3 games.

 

1.b4 is not "bad".  Is it as strong as 1.d4 (best by "database percentage" if you really are gun-ho on that) or 1.e4 (A full 2 percent lower than 1.d4)?  Of course not!

I forget where I read it, but a number of years back, I had read somewhere an article that had gathered almost every database that was out there at the time, like chessbase, newinchess, etc, and did a score comparison across all of them rather than 1, and 1.b4 as I recall had scored 50.2% (I was playing it as far back as then, hence why I remembered), compared to 1.d4's score of 56.1% and 1.e4's score of 54.1%.  1.c4 scored about 52%, 1.Nf3 was near 53%.  Most other flank openings sat between 50 and 51%, with 1.f4 standing out as the worst with about 46 and a half percent.

 

If White is happy with a basically equal game that he understands and Black doesn't, there's nothing wrong with 1.b4.  At the world championship level where you need to try to win with White and simply try to hold on in your Black games (worked for Kramnik in 2000 going with this approach), then yes, 1.b4 is probably not recommended.

BlackLionOrangutnKid

At maybe a 1500 OTB player, I just like 1.b4 because

a) am tired of e4 and THEM controlling somewhat because they have canned responses to it

b) it surprises them and takes them out of their comfort zone

c) it can contain a lot of traps for black if they don't play sharply

d) I like to have the attack and make them guess at what they're doing

e) if it's good enough for Bobby Fischer and Tartakower...

Funny, I got the book yesterday and devoured the first 20 pages...he starts off with the f6 reply lines.  Jumped on chess.com to try it out in LIVE games and it gave me Black three times in a row.  cry.png  Will try again today, hoping to get white. 

   Someone thought I wouldn't get much out of the book...well, I've found that it's the little sidelines where you may get the  most out of it...that's where they make a not so great move and then you can hit them with good/great tactics.   I learned what to do if they brought Nc6 out, push my b pawn and most likely they trot on down toward my men, of which I respond with c4; then their N is a goner.  I hadn't thought of that response.

   Chapter 2 is Black taking the b pawn on the 3rd move. 

  At my level, or sub 1800, I don't think the +- 0.3 moves matter so much either. 

 The last game, while playing Black, dreaming about the Orangutan, we were toward the end of middle game, and I had a family fork tactic, hitting his King and both rooks.  I went temporarily blind and didn't see it.   Two moves later, I still hit the fork and eventually got one rook and went on to win the game; but it so aggravated me.  Does that ever happen to higher players?  You seemingly go blind and don't see an easy tactic?   

Ziggy_Zugzwang

You might also want to explore the Polish 1d b5 as black.

I like it sometimes as 1d4 Nf6 2Nf3 , white plays an 'annoying d pawn " opening and 2....b5 which is better than 1d4 b5 statistically because of the b pawn vulnerability. I call this the "Polish Defence Deferred."

advancededitingtool1
Not sure about the players involved, all the same between 1.b4 and 1.f4 I'll always pick the latter.
advancededitingtool1
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BlackLionOrangutnKid

Tartakower is one of the top two that made the opening famous.  Bobby Fischer copied/studied him on the opening.    Read some more in the Play b4! book, then sat down to play another game to try it out.   The computer gave me Black again.   That's 4 in a row.  So I played the computer as white and it played the f6  move,  I pushed my e4,  its B took the free pawn, I moved my Bc4, then forgot what to do after that...didn't really have a goal/strategy at that point.  

  Thanks however for the help Thriller.  

advancededitingtool1
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advancededitingtool1

Right, regrettably I'm not a teacher, and I'm not an authentic aboriginal either.

chesskingdreamer

Okay, so chess.com just basically posted this comment without everything I typed, so I'm just going to paraphrase here:

I don't really see anything wrong with using an engine for objective opening analysis. Sure, if the engine said black was winning you might want to take it with a grain of salt. Secondly, I gave reasons on the evaluations and the engine was just a part of the "back-up."

I'm not sure where you get your statistics but in my "advanced" database with only decent players, black scored much better than white. In my 6 2500+ games, black scored 5/6, including a Ivanchuk-Giri 0-1 nice game. In addition, white scored 48% or so in the recent games with 2400+ avg. rating. I don't feel this is particularily indicative of this opening since most of the white players were lower rated (no serious strong player wants to play this), but the score isn't particularily inspiring.

Finally, it's an OK opening and good for blitz or at club level (<2500 FIDE, say) because at that level you can get away with a lot of stuff. So maybe I'd even try it once in a while!

It's not as bad as some other options out there.

(Aww-rats 1.e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 f5? Comes to mind)

BlackLionOrangutnKid

@chesskingdreamer  Thanks for the input.  If you have time, can you answer a question on the Sokolsky?  I've read that it's good for attack on the Queen side.  What?!  I've played about 15 games with it now and only once remember attacking on the Q side.  Often white's b pawn gets taken out and so there seems to go the attack on the Q side.  After a few opening moves for White, what is the strategy from there?  Seems one doesn't often castle, or should White try to castle short side and then throw the rooks at the Q side?  Should White often try the Qh5+? 

  I like Leklerk's sense of humor... "I'm not an authentic aboriginal either"    Don't know what that exactly means but it funny.   Are you saying you're not really from Ireland, Leklerk?  or just a play on words?

  

ThrillerFan
leklerk1 wrote:
jengaias wrote:
leklerk1 wrote:
Not sure about the players involved, all the same between 1.b4 and 1.f4 I'll always pick the latter.

Congratulations for being out of the topic one more time.I think it's the 10th the last month.Must be some kind of record.

yes, well apart from thrillerfan being out of topic on the subject too, and Tartakower as well, I have nothing else to say

What the hell are you talking about you stupid clown?  We are talking about the Sokolsky, and I have posted on the Sokolsky!

Go get your head examined you moron!

ThrillerFan
chesskingdreamer wrote:

Okay, so chess.com just basically posted this comment without everything I typed, so I'm just going to paraphrase here:

I don't really see anything wrong with using an engine for objective opening analysis. Sure, if the engine said black was winning you might want to take it with a grain of salt. Secondly, I gave reasons on the evaluations and the engine was just a part of the "back-up."

I'm not sure where you get your statistics but in my "advanced" database with only decent players, black scored much better than white. In my 6 2500+ games, black scored 5/6, including a Ivanchuk-Giri 0-1 nice game. In addition, white scored 48% or so in the recent games with 2400+ avg. rating. I don't feel this is particularily indicative of this opening since most of the white players were lower rated (no serious strong player wants to play this), but the score isn't particularily inspiring.

Finally, it's an OK opening and good for blitz or at club level (<2500 FIDE, say) because at that level you can get away with a lot of stuff. So maybe I'd even try it once in a while!

It's not as bad as some other options out there.

(Aww-rats 1.e4 Nc6 2. Nf3 f5? Comes to mind)

I don't know how you can say you don't know where we get the chess statistics from!  I spelled it out completely in post 23.

I specified that I didn't recall the exact spot that I got the 50.2%, but I spilled out everything before that, mentioning chesstempo.com, and the various rating restrictions, and how clearly 2400 players were mopping Black off the board, as the numbers went down for over 2400, and also for 2200 plus players!

However, 2400s is nothing to sneeze at!

 

Long story short:  Is 1.b4 the strongest move of the 20 legal possibilities?  NO!  Is 1.b4 as bad as many make it out to be, especially those that compare it to 1.g4?  ABSOLUTELY NOT!

advancededitingtool1
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BlackLionOrangutnKid

I tried the Orangutan against a 1700 player today (I'm perhaps 1500) OTB.  He is super fast, plays a LOT of Blitz/2 minute games.  .  . but this slowed him down.  We got to the end game, I had 2 rooks and pawn, he had his Queen.  I had my rooks lined up with his K pinned against the wall...maybe I made a mistake, I don't know, my pawn was 3 moves from promoting, but he kept checking me and my King danced around the pawn.   Finally we drew.  Actually I was happy to get the draw on him with the Sokolsky!  

chesskingdreamer

Ah...I use MegaDatabase2016 with TWICs, along with the truncated database with games of 2011-16 w/ 2400 avg rating, and 2000-2011 with 2600 (or 2550, I forget) avg rating along with a bunch of annotated games (what I mean is that even if avg isn't 2600, annotated games are still included). Total database I think is pretty large, around 260,000 games, all updated to this date right now.

Of course, the mega database is around 6 million games, although most games are from weak players.

Finally, I think we're arguing red apples and green apples. I already said that b4 was an ok move, just not the greatest. Now that I read what I typed, it's pretty much the same as what you said.

EDIT: To clarify, I simply evaluated the position after 3...Nf6. I'm not saying that white can't outplay black from that position, which is of course quite possible.

pzn2pawn

I've been playing the Sokolsky exclusively in correspondence for the past year with good success.  White does indeed get a good Q-side attack on the a or c files -- best if it's on the c file.  Just need to be careful not to get steamrolled down the middle. The 1...e5 lines are the most testing -- just need to know what you're doing.  Can't rely on Master databases to predict how an opening will work out in club-level (>2000) play. I know one guy on another site who uses the Sokolsky exclusively while maintaining a 2150 rating). Another rated 2000 who plays only Sokolsky as white and the St George as black. Does this prove these are good openings? Of course not, but they are perfectly viable for amateur players. Being familiar with the patterns likely to emerge is more important than memorizing standard openings.  I got tired of seeing Sicilian defenses all the time. I look at it as getting right into the middle game from move 1 and having interesting games where the action can range all over the board.

BlackLionOrangutnKid

Sun and Stars, what would you say the top TWO responses are to 1.b4   2.Bb2?

For me, I'm finding that 1...e5   2...f6    AND   not sure...  They rarely take that free pawn with their Bishop on the 2nd move.  

advancededitingtool1
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pzn2pawn

Knowlegeable black players will respond 1....e5, take the b-pawn and rely on fast piece development and q-side majority to offset white's central pawn majority. White can get overrun in the center quickly if he is not careful. These lines are recommended by some popular repertoire books for black. Surprisingly the lines with 4.c4 restraining black in the center score less well than 4. nf3 or 4.e3, because white's slow k-side development frequently leads to early trouble with swarming black minor pieces overrunning the center.    

Karpark

At which point white resigned. Agree with pfren (post number 3) and pznpawn2 (immediately above). White has to know what they're doing with this way of defendng against the Polish (as I grew up to call it). An example of what happens if they don't from a fairly recent game of mine. "Bet you still wished you had that b-pawn, don't you?"