Stonewall dutch for beginners ?

Hello, I'm beginner player . As a black I find very difficult to fight against D4. At first I tried to learn kings indian defense, but it was extremely difficult ,and my win rate was terrible . Now I'm interested to learn stonewall dutch defense . Because its give me chance to play e6 in first move against D4 and transpose to french defense if white plays e4 wich I'm familliar with . 

So looking for stronger or stonewall players advices , is it good opening for beginner? does ideas and plans are very hard to understand in this opening ? Thank you all for tips

The Dutch and the King's Indian are probably two of the worst choices for beginners (very complex and Black makes serious positional concessions from the get-go), although the Stonewall might be ok for a player comfortable with the French defence, you will have to try it for yourself. I would rather recommend something like the Cambridge Springs.

why not the queen's gambit declined. it shares pawn breaks with the french, and is not so difficult to learn or play.  you cover 1 c4 and 1 nf3 too, which i can't say for the stonewall.

@king5minblitz119147 Agreed, QGD is a much better choice for beginners.

The Chigorin QG is great to get interesting and tactical games.  You can win with it while it teaches you about development, the center, etc

U should purchase this book which is excellent, at least have a look on introduction here :

https://www.chessable.com/my-first-chess-opening-repertoire-for-black/course/9014/

It proposes Stonewall dutch in a simple and straightforward way, very educational and effective at your level.

However, it advocates Stonewall if white doesn't go for 1.d4 2.c4, which is met by Albin counter gambit.

i admit that both the chigorin and the albin are dynamic ways to play, and very tricky too. i just don't like that they don't scale with playing strength, so that at some point they have to be discarded. i am not strong enough to claim to always get a definitive advantage against these two, and perhaps for more tactical chances you should go here than in the traditional qgd. but i would say that you have other ways to get tactical play, like your opening vs 1 e4 for example, or your white repertoire.

I have a huge amount of respect for the QGD (the tartakower is my main defense actually), but many beginners don't care to immediately block in their LSB.  The Chigorin is a great learning tool since it creates so many tangible imbalances.  The Chigorin is sound though and can be a permanent part of your repertoire. 

The Stonewall is a bad choice for beginners because it is only useful in certain circumstances.  In other cases, you'd need to know the Classical Dutch as well, and Nimzo-type positions.

You cannot allow Bf4 and Bd3 against the Stonewall.  Black is almost lost there.

Also, you are better off with a classical setup against Nh3 lines.

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 and now 4...c6, not 4...d5.  If White has played c4, Black can safely play ...c6.

Now 5.Nf3 d5 or 5.Nh3 d6!

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.Nf3, you have to play 4...Bb4 with an improved nimzo!  4...d5?? 5.Bf4! Intending 6.e3 and 7.Bd3, if Black ever goes Bd6, TRADE!

1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3 - Here, there is no reason to play a Stonewall.  That is a last resort if White takes the diagonal.  After Black's first 3 moves, if White has not taken the diagonal, then 4...b6! And 5...Bb7!.

And in the Stonewall itself, you cannot allow the bishop trade unless it does structural damage to white or costs a lot of tempi.  1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.g3 e6 4.Bg2 c6 5.Nf3 d5 6.O-O Bd6, if 7.Bf4, take immediately.  If 7.b3, threatening Ba3, you need to play 7...Qe7.

All of this is a lot to know for a beginner.  You should answer 1.d4 with 1...d5, then 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Bg5 Be7.  Very basic - easy to understand, and SOUND!

Thrillerfan's variations and evaluations are fine but he forgets that at beginner's level, all this will never be played and if played, it will not decide the result. And if u lose against someone who outplays u, well this would have probably been the same with other opening so...

QGD is of course the most educational opening, but if u want to play something else and u like it, then just play it, no matter what other say!

But again poucin, the point is to learn things correctly the first time so that you do not have to start all over when you get higher.

Just because you are lower rated does not mean that you should not care about playing correct chess.

You are confusing correct chess with deep theory.  Some of low rating should not be "Memorizing" reams of lines.  They need to simply look at the lines, absorb the text, and understand the following general concepts about the opening at hand:

1) Do not just freely allow a trade of Dark-Squared Bishops.  Only do so when you have forced white to make numerous moves to set it up, or in cases where it inflicts structural damage.

2) Do not weaken the e5-square with ...d5 if White can still place his Bishops on both f4 and d3.

3) If White gives you the long light square diagonal, take it!  Do not just automatically play moves without paying attention to what your opponent has done.

Knowing these 3 general ideas will get you a long way, but these ideas are far more complicated than the ideas behind, say, the Queens Gambit Declined.

At his level, he should not be focused on what the latest novelty is at move 14, or memorizing reams of lines.  But he should still learn concepts and learn them correctly.  That Dark-Squared Bishop is precious.  What White does with the light-squared bishop (you could care less if it is move 2, move 4, etc) dictates Black's play.  Did he take the diagonal before me?

That way, you face the weird stuff, but can still ask yourself the same questions.  Rather than "What should I do after White's odd 4th move?  It went 1.d4 f5 2.c4 Nf6 3.Nc3 e6 4.e3." - Instead of having to ask others for specifics on what to do after 4.e3, instead go thru your checklist:

1) Did White Fianchetto?  No.  No Stonewall setup

2) Did White develop both Knights to c3 and f3?  No!  No need for Bb4 here

Hmm, White did not fianchetto and take over the diagonal, and no need for Bb4, therefore, I must need to fianchetto my Bishop.

4.e3 b6!

4.a3 b6!

4.Qc2 b6!

4.b3 b6!

Notice that if you understand the concept, you do not have to look dumbfounded when White plays an odd 4th move!  No memorizing.  Just run through your checklist.  Remember, if 1 is Yes, you have a 1B about where the Knight is.  Classical if h3, Stonewall of f3.

So 3 or 4 simple questions that you can ask over and over again and it will drive you in the right direction without relying on your opponent to follow theory.

As a beginner you are most likely to win games and/or learn something by following basic principles: occupy the centre with pawns, develop pieces quickly and so on. Whether or not you have any idea of queen's gambit theory, d5 is a better opening move for beginners than f5 because it helps towards these goals: you occupy a centre square with your pawn, open a line for your light-squared bishop, and even give a bit more freedom to your queen. f5, on the other hand, is  a less important square, you haven't liberated any pieces, and you have opened a line for your opponent to attack your king (eg, if you follow up with ...g5?? you can fall for Fool's Mate). This doesn't mean the Dutch is a bad opening, just that it suits a more advanced player who is able to achieve their strategic goals despite the less obviously advantageous first move.

the stonewall is pretty good. I play it alot. there are some tactics white can play if you have the dark square bishops facing off, but usually they cannot stop you from doing your plans. White usually beats you on the queenside, so throwing in a timely a5 a4 is helpful to limiting their space. Qe8-qh5 is a strong attacking resource, and often if you can break open the center with e5 or f4 you'll find yourself with a strong attack. Its a fine opening for beginners, but you really need to get a feel for the pawn structure if you want to play it at a high level. Your bishop will stay on c8 for along time very often, but dont worry. if you can break the center open it is often well placed to join the attack.

I recommend the Giuoco Piano Game.

Usually I move the Bishop c8-d7-e8 → h5 or g6

When the Bishop is in e8 the d7 square is available to the Nb8.

If you like the French, the Stonewall is richer in possibilities and generally better. Anyway true beginners have to try the 1. d4 d5 first. In fact I move 1.d4 d5 and f5 next. The Semi-Slav Defense makes for a good transition to the Stonewall Dutch.

Hey Thriller Fan, I just bought a book on the stonewall Dutch because I want to start taking it up. After browsing thru it what you said about responding to White's various 4th moves was spot on.

Study some games by Botvinnik, Bronstein, and Carlsen with it.
https://www.chessgames.com/perl/chessgame?gid=1860337