Switching to Sicilian, but which Sicilian?

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Mazetoskylo
DrumstickChippopotamus wrote:

Thanks for your comments. Yes OTB I am a B player, I don't play online much these days.

So to summarize:

1. The French is still a very aggressive opening for black according to many people here

2. Najdorf has more theory then the Dragon but might be a bit more forgiving then the Dragon if you make theoretical mistakes

Do we agree on this?

- The French is a very sound opening, which can be played very quietly (Rubinstein stuff), positionally (Nf6 against Nc3, d5 plus exd5 against Nd2) or tactically (Winawer against Nc3, Nf6 against Nd2).

- The Najdorf has more theory than the Dragon, and it is also less forgiving in the sharp lines (Bg5 / Be3). In the Dragon, the only really challenging lines are the Yugoslav attack and the Konstinopolsky complex (Yugoslav without an early Bc4 (and probably the early g4 line, too). But Black has good play against all of them without having to memorize a ton- I suggest having a look at Giri's book/ course on the Dragon. The general consensus is that White's best tries for a positional edge are the Konstantinopolsky "gambit" lines, where Black has to know what he is doing, but he cerainly does not risk getting slaugthered if he commits an inaccuracy.

ThrillerFan
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

He's overexaggerating as depending on what you play, that list is cut down massively. If you play the Najdorf then you basically just have to play

  • Alapin
  • Closed
  • Smith-Morra
  • Moscow (Canal)
  • Wing Gambit

Rossolimo can't be played against 2. ...d6 and Chameleon is only ever meant to transpose into other variations.

The Alapin is easy equality.

The Closed Fianchetto doesn't really have any bite to it. Other Closed Sicilian lines aren't so dangerous either.

The Wing Gambit is unsound and much better for black.

The Moscow is the only other considerable line next to the Open Sicilian but it's not as formidable as the Rossolimo.

Couple others he left out:

1) Grand Prix Attack (f4 and developing the Bishop to c4 or b5 rather than fianchettoing it like in the Closed)

2) 3.c3 lines. Unlike 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 e6 3.c3 or 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3, which just directly transpose to the Alapin, the line 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 d6 3.c3 is TOTALLY DIFFERENT and NOT a transposition because of tactics. For example, after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6, 4...Nxe4 is a threat.

But after 1.e4 c5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.c3 Nf6, 4...Nxe4 is not a threat because of Qa4+ and Qxe4.

So this is NOT the Alapin, and another you must know.

3) 2.b3 - yes, this is another line, and a recent book was even written on 2.b3 vs the Sicilian, French, and Caro-Kann.

mrOpenRuy

in the french you have to worry about the exchange, which is why i quit the french other then it goes against a ton of principles

Mazetoskylo
mrOpenRuy wrote:

in the french you have to worry about the exchange, which is why i quit the french other then it goes against a ton of principles

Yes indeed, equalizing as Black as early as move three is extremely annoying... tongue.png

SamuelAjedrez95
DrumstickChippopotamus wrote:

Thanks for your comments. Yes OTB I am a B player, I don't play online much these days.

So to summarize:

1. The French is still a very aggressive opening for black according to many people here

2. Najdorf has more theory then the Dragon but might be a bit more forgiving then the Dragon if you make theoretical mistakes

Do we agree on this?

Yes, French is also an aggressive defence with sharp lines.

It's not as much about theory. Najdorf is more flexible and diverse than the Dragon. It's also more positionally sound.

In a sense the Dragon has a clear remedy from the white perspective, with the Yugoslav Attack. Against the Najdorf, white has tried many different moves but has no clear remedy as black has several good answers to any move white uncorks.

SamuelAjedrez95

Every defence has its dull variations. Nothing is guaranteed.

French: Exchange

Sicilian: Alapin

King's Indian: Exchange, Trompowsky

There are some players who just like to be a buzzkill for the sake of it basically lol. Just something you have to deal with no matter what you play.

SamuelAjedrez95
RatkoGavrilo1 wrote:

Esserman has actually came up with dynamic Alapin lines (as much as Alapin could get, not saying much) in Morra declined chapters. Though Pfren thinks its bs. I am taking Essermans word over that old hag any day though.

Still, thats because you are forced in Morra declined. Alapin is fine, but its no Open Sicillian.

There are ways of making the Alapin a bit more interesting. d5 is generally more active and dynamic than Nf6, although Nf6 is technically supposed to be the best.

This line is good.

It's not the best objectively but black still scores very well with it. It's very active and kind of trappy.

mrOpenRuy
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
RatkoGavrilo1 wrote:

Esserman has actually came up with dynamic Alapin lines (as much as Alapin could get, not saying much) in Morra declined chapters. Though Pfren thinks its bs. I am taking Essermans word over that old hag any day though.

Still, thats because you are forced in Morra declined. Alapin is fine, but its no Open Sicillian.

There are ways of making the Alapin a bit more interesting. d5 is generally more active and dynamic than Nf6, although Nf6 is technically supposed to be the best.

This line is good.

It's not the best objectively but black still scores very well with it. It's very active and kind of trappy.

i dont know why people play the alapin, i guess its because gotham promoted it, why do youn think its popular?

but typically your best option as black is to equalize (which you usually can easily as black)

i think Nf6 is more safer than d5 regardless of the position being more dryer

SamuelAjedrez95

Against pretty much every other anti-Sicilian, black can play a Dragon structure when it's more favourable and have a good game.

A bunch of different anti-Sicilians fall under the umbrella of Dragon structure.

For example

SamuelAjedrez95
mrOpenRuy wrote:

i dont know why people play the alapin, i guess its because gotham promoted it, why do youn think its popular?

but typically your best option as black is to equalize (which you usually can easily as black)

i think Nf6 is more safer than d5 regardless of the position being more dryer

It's because the Alapin is simple and easy. It's like any of these cookie cutter openings for beginners like London or Caro-Kann.

Why do people play the French Exchange? Because it's simple and easy.

rivuchess

The Dragon is interesting if and only if you get to the Yugoslav, but otherwise go for Najdorf

mrOpenRuy
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
mrOpenRuy wrote:

i dont know why people play the alapin, i guess its because gotham promoted it, why do youn think its popular?

but typically your best option as black is to equalize (which you usually can easily as black)

i think Nf6 is more safer than d5 regardless of the position being more dryer

It's because the Alapin is simple and easy. It's like any of these cookie cutter openings for beginners like London or Caro-Kann.

Why do people play the French Exchange? Because it's simple and easy.

at beginner-intermediate level is understandable but at the 1900 level it is still very common (which ive played at)

mrOpenRuy

which makes me think that some peoples elo is inflated, many people on chess.com only play unsound, weird,uncommon lines in hopes that their oppoment does not know what to do. and they usually dont so they end up winning, but thats also why they cant get past 2000

mrOpenRuy

i could likely easily get to 2000 if i were to just learn 1 solid opening and use it (i.e caro kann as black and vienna as white) as gotham recommends

but i say screw that and i decide how to learn REAL chess where i learn and teach myself the sharpest openings despite many people gatekeeping it. i take calculated risks, i go for sharp lines where it wont be a draw, and i refuse to play calm, sound, drawish lines.

mrOpenRuy
rivuchess wrote:

The Dragon is interesting if and only if you get to the Yugoslav, but otherwise go for Najdorf

i personally think that not playing the yugoslav gives black equality, for example the Be2 line for white i think just gives equality

+0.1

Ethan_Brollier
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:

He's overexaggerating as depending on what you play, that list is cut down massively. If you play the Najdorf then you basically just have to play

  • Alapin
  • Closed
  • Smith-Morra
  • Moscow (Canal)
  • Wing Gambit

Rossolimo can't be played against 2. ...d6 and Chameleon is only ever meant to transpose into other variations.

The Alapin is easy equality.

The Closed Fianchetto doesn't really have any bite to it. Other Closed Sicilian lines aren't so dangerous either.

The Wing Gambit is unsound and much better for black.

The Moscow is the only other considerable line next to the Open Sicilian but it's not as formidable as the Rossolimo.

I disagree with a lot of this.
If you play the Najdorf, you have to know:
Alapin: Solid. Not good, but solid equality for both colors in the d5 variation and slight Black advantage in the Nf6 variant, but if White knows what they're doing, it might be difficult to prove more than a draw against. 
Smith-Morra: Learn the refutation if you think you'll face it often or play the Alapin transposition if you don't, I don't care either way. Same as before though, if White knows what they're doing, it might be a dangerous game.
2. d3/g3 Closed w/8. h3: White is going to attack the kingside with g4 f5 Qe1 Qh4 Be3, Black needs to play incredibly sharp defensive and counterattacking chess on the queenside to survive.
2. d3/g3 Closed w/8. h3: White is going to play for a massive center after a4 h3 g4 Be3 bxc3 d4 cxd4, Black needs to know how to counterattack the center and play positional chess to defend their position and come out with an advantage.
2. Nc3 Closed w/6. Nge2: White is going to play for a center attack and a kingside attack with Be3 Qd2 f4 Nd1 and either c3 Qxe2 or Nc1 c3 bxc3 Ne2, but Black has to know to play e6 Ne7 rather than Nf6 in this position so you can play f5 in response to g4 after the queenside counterattack, or Black can play with a Botvinnik centre here and play for a more centralized counterattack.2. Nc3 Closed w/6. f4: White is going to play for a kingside attack with Nf6 0-0 h3 a3 Be3 axb4 Ne2 Rb1 b3 g4 g5 Ng3 f5 dxe4 exf5, but Black should do well as long as Black knows to take the a-file, threatening to trade off the heavy pieces into an easy endgame and take the center when it opens with better development.
GPA: Similar to the common Closed ideas, but not exactly the same, go with the Botvinnik or e6 Nd7 structure presumably rather than the traditional Dragon structure.
Wing Gambit: There are two of them, both objectively better for Black, but considering White is playing almost a reverse Benko structure, this could have some real bite to it.
Moscow: Learn the Nd7 line. You'll be fine, playing a Najdorf structure up tempo or with a good LSB and the bishop pair.
Delayed Alapin: The Basman-Palatnik and Double Pawn are both very strong for White, despite being theoretically a draw with perfect play, don't count these out, but if Black doesn't go for the Basman-Palatnik, White is still doing quite well, as Black can't play the usual Alapin ideas.
Prins: You'll have to learn one of two setups where White still has counterplay and a slight advantage, don't underestimate a Prins main.
Chekhover: Again, White will still retain an advantage and it isn't easy to prove equality against this, and it's very trappy, almost a delayed Rossolimo in some variations, and a tactical sequence in others, but White will always be slightly better.
Najdorf: You'll have to learn many, many, many setups, even if your opponents only played Bg5 setups.

RatkoGavrilo1

There are two Wing Gambits? You mean delayed and normal?

mrOpenRuy

make it simple for op

heres your main setups agianst open/closed positions WITH PLANS

Closed french sicilian setup

plans

  •  d5 to break the center open to use your bishop pair
  •  b5 to expand on the queenside and to fianchetto your light squared bishop
  • Qc7 to control e5
  • Rb8 to prepare b5 if white has played a4
  • Re8 to take a open file after d5
  • btw you want to open the position is much as possible never play closing moves like d4

Dragon Setup in the closed sicilian

  • d5 to open the position
  • get b5 in to take space
  • get a knight to d4 (if white has a knight on c3 it will be there for awhile
  • try to use your dragon bishop to control the dark squares as much as you can
  • Rb8 to get b5
  • potential f5 ideas after your kings knight moves to take space

Small center setup

  •  develop your kingside before your queenside (be7, 0-0)
  • a6 ( to get b5
  • Bd7 (only if you played B5 before Nc6) to support your queensknight
  • Bg7 (to controll the light squares and develop a piece
  •  clean d5 break (without giving you a IQP)
  • Rc8 to pressure the C file even more

Hedgehog setup

  • here you typically respond to how white plays most of the time, 
  • clean d5 break
  • b5
  • queenside expansion
  • remain as solid as possbile 
  • open everything up and trade some pieces due to you being low on space

Najdorf setup

  • be7
  • be6
  • Nd7 (maybe you want Nb6)
  • Nc6 (good option)
  • a5, to gain space and plant the knight at B4
  • a6, to go b5
  • clean d5 break
  • Qc7/Qb6 just a good spot to put the queen (IF YOU CAN)
  • Rec8 i recommend so your A rook can remain attacking the queenside
  • Qa5 (only works well with a6 setups
 
 
 
SamuelAjedrez95

Chekhover is equal at best. In the line I showed above, black scores significantly better.

It's as if it's an Accelerated Dragon, Maroczy Bind except white is down a tempo and the knight is on f3 where it blocks the f pawn.

The Prins is very flawed. The idea is to play a Maroczy Bind by defending e4 with the pawn inatead of the knight. The issue is that this doesn't work. The knight doesn't just defend e4 but it also covers d5. Omitting it allows black to conquer the whole entire centre.

This is a classic "Sicilian gone wrong for white" where black has mobilised their central pawn majority to great effect.

mrOpenRuy

nobody's arguing with you...