Tarrasch or Chigorin

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Avatar of WCPetrosian

It's interesting that GM Vassilios Kotronias (peak FIDE rating 2628) states that in his opinion 3...c5 (Tarrasch Defense) is as good as 3...Nf6 and 3...c6 and from a practical point of view 3...c5 might be better.

Avatar of MisterOakwood

The problem with offbeat openings like the Chigorin is not the openings themselves. It is the fact that people think that by playing them, you avoid theory. This could not be further from the truth.

Playing the Chigorin requires razor sharp knowledge of the major forcing lines otherwise you will be far worse. For example:

In conclusion, black cannot play the chigorin to avoid theory. If you want to avoid theory - go for the most objectively sound openings that there are. Then it probably wont matter too much if you play sub-optimal moves.

Avatar of pfren
MisterOakwood έγραψε:

The problem with offbeat openings like the Chigorin is not the openings themselves. It is the fact that people think that by playing them, you avoid theory. This could not be further from the truth.

Playing the Chigorin requires razor sharp knowledge of the major forcing lines otherwise you will be far worse. For example:

 

In conclusion, black cannot play the chigorin to avoid theory. If you want to avoid theory - go for the most objectively sound openings that there are. Then it probably wont matter too much if you play sub-optimal moves.

This isn't the contemporary way the Chigorin is played.

You can find more details for free (full analysis is paid) here:

https://tinyurl.com/24y8l6la

Good sound ways to play against 1.d4 with minimal theory do exist, and they are mostly offbeat. The Chigorin is quite theoretical, and not one of them.

Avatar of MisterOakwood
pfren skrev:
MisterOakwood έγραψε:

The problem with offbeat openings like the Chigorin is not the openings themselves. It is the fact that people think that by playing them, you avoid theory. This could not be further from the truth.

Playing the Chigorin requires razor sharp knowledge of the major forcing lines otherwise you will be far worse. For example:

 

In conclusion, black cannot play the chigorin to avoid theory. If you want to avoid theory - go for the most objectively sound openings that there are. Then it probably wont matter too much if you play sub-optimal moves.

This isn't the contemporary way the Chigorin is played.

You can find more details for free (full analysis is paid) here:

https://tinyurl.com/24y8l6la

Good sound ways to play against 1.d4 with minimal theory do exist, and they are mostly offbeat. The Chigorin is quite theoretical, and not one of them.

The chigorin with e6 against the main-line is the old main line. When the move Bg4 was discovered, it has since been the most played move in the position. At least according to IM Jimmy Liew - Chigorin Defence: Move by move. He describes the e6 lines as passive but playable. Almost all my knowledge from the chigorin comes from this book.

According to my database, Bg4 is played over 90% of the time in recent master games - in contrast to e6 which this course you sent recommends is only played less than 2% of the time.

Avatar of pfren
MisterOakwood έγραψε:
pfren skrev:
MisterOakwood έγραψε:

The problem with offbeat openings like the Chigorin is not the openings themselves. It is the fact that people think that by playing them, you avoid theory. This could not be further from the truth.

Playing the Chigorin requires razor sharp knowledge of the major forcing lines otherwise you will be far worse. For example:

 

In conclusion, black cannot play the chigorin to avoid theory. If you want to avoid theory - go for the most objectively sound openings that there are. Then it probably wont matter too much if you play sub-optimal moves.

This isn't the contemporary way the Chigorin is played.

You can find more details for free (full analysis is paid) here:

https://tinyurl.com/24y8l6la

Good sound ways to play against 1.d4 with minimal theory do exist, and they are mostly offbeat. The Chigorin is quite theoretical, and not one of them.

The chigorin with e6 against the main-line is the old main line. When the move Bg4 was discovered, it has since been the most played move in the position. At least according to IM Jimmy Liew - Chigorin Defence: Move by move. He describes the e6 lines as passive but playable. Almost all my knowledge from the chigorin comes from this book.

According to my database, Bg4 is played over 90% of the time in recent master games - in contrast to e6 which this course you sent recommends is only played less than 2% of the time.

3.Nf3 e6 isn't worse than 3...Bg4, and it is a practical choice, as you can also handle 3.Nc3 the same way: 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 e6(!) with a transposition.

It can also occur from the knights tango move order.

Avatar of MisterOakwood
pfren skrev:

3.Nf3 e6 isn't worse than 3...Bg4, and it is a practical choice, as you can also handle 3.Nc3 the same way: 3.Nc3 Nf6 4.Nf3 e6(!) with a transposition.

It can also occur from the knights tango move order.

The only problem I have with e6 is that I dont see why anybody would play the Chigorin for a positional slow battle. By principle, we all know that "we are not supposed to block our c-pawn in the QG". I feel like the goal in the Chigorin is to sacrifice positional variables (c-pawn, bishop pair etc) for major complications with king safety, activity and pawn structure imbalances - where I dont personally think e6 can offer me this.

Avatar of KeSetoKaiba

I believe the Chigorin Defense is more sound. The Tarrasch Defense is probably more popular, but I think of the Kasparov-Karpov WC match mentioned in post #5. Both are tactical openings with tons of theory though, so it's probably more about preference than it is about which is more solid. Both of these openings aren't my top choice if I want a solid option which I find reliable. Perhaps some players will select one of these openings and make it work for them though.

Avatar of AviChessMaster01

Tarrasch defence

Avatar of pfren
KeSetoKaiba έγραψε:

I believe the Chigorin Defense is more sound. The Tarrasch Defense is probably more popular, but I think of the Kasparov-Karpov WC match mentioned in post #5. Both are tactical openings with tons of theory though, so it's probably more about preference than it is about which is more solid. Both of these openings aren't my top choice if I want a solid option which I find reliable. Perhaps some players will select one of these openings and make it work for them though.

A lot of Tarrasch theory was cut after the invention of the so-called Dubov variation: 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c5 4.cxd5 exd5 5.Nf3 Nc6 6.g3 Nf6 7.Bg2 cxd4 8.Nxd4 Bc5! which has been tested and found great at the highest level. No wonder that white is trying to avoid it recently by either entering the 6.dxc5 variation, or with silly looking alternatives like 7.a3!? in place of 7.Bg2.

Perhaps it's a bit "Anti-Tarrasch" as Black's aim is to completely level the game via active piece play, so it's rather difficult for him to play for a win, but other than that it's OK. Of course there are a few exceptions: