The 3...Qd8 Scandinavian

You cannot really put the bishop at f5 in the Qd8 variation- it triggers the usual Bc4/Ne5/g4/h4 etc plan, where Black stands badly.

Just discovered this thread looking for an answer to this question. Could someone explain it in these terms?

We typically think of white as having a small advantage because white starts the game with a tempo so to speak. After Qd8, all of black's pieces are on their original squares, material is even, and not only is it white's turn, but white has a piece developed. Where's the compensation for black? Is there some subtle advantage to having the e-pawn instead of the d-pawn? Is white's king more exposed, is the potential development of the light-squared bishop somehow better for black? I just don't see how it's "solid" if white is up two tempos instead of one.

Thanks to anyone who can explain this me.

White gets an advantage in developmenmt in all ...Qxd5 Scandinavian lines. 3...Qd8 means that Black may not worry about having her being kicked again, hia structure is solid (usuallky he wants to employ a Caro one), but to stop white from launching a dangerous initiative, he has to surrender the bishop pair: 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 (only serious try for an advantage) Qxd5 3.Nc3 Qd8 4.d4 Nf6 5.Nf3 Bg4 6.h3 Bxf3 7.Qxf3 c6. Black will also drop in ...e6 and develop, when he is solid, but white is slightly better because oif his bishop pair.

The Scandy, Caro-Kann, and French are crap. The Scandy is the best of the worst, because it only wastes a tempo, not a piece. The Caro-Kann and French lock in the Bishop like Alcatraz...

Scandinavian is not refuted, however it would be among the last openings that I would personally play since it violates every rule we live by in chess. Black basically hopes to survive giving White the centre and sometimes a bishop pair. The thing White has to avoid to be better is trading pieces and trying to get that c pawn to c4. If White can achieve c4 without trading anything and stopping Black's c5 and e5 plan, he should be winning. Against 3...Qa5 the plan of Nd5 and Nxf6 followed by g3 is quite enough for decent edge where Black will have no counterplay on the g-file that he wanted and has a ruined structure for what reason again? Black's whole strategy revolves around trading pieces or trying to get that c5 since e5 is almost always impossible.

In the Caro-Kann you give up the centre to develop the potentially problematic Bishop as in the Slav Defense, so that I understand. French Defense is like a King's Indian...It looks like crap, but somehow it works. The potential to bring the pieces to life with c5 gives just enough counterplay as f5 does in King's Indian.

Thank you @pfren. I also found this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8_f7oAbE6q0 where he says that, because white is blocking the c-pawn, he has to give back the tempo eventually by moving the knight a second time in order to strengthen the center.

I appreciate your explanation, makes a lot of sense.

Black is only one tempo down, not two.

White's e-Pawn moved twice (e2-e4 and exd5) and then disappeared from the board (taking those two moves with it), while Black's d-Pawn moved only once (d7-d5) and then disappeared from the board, taking one move with it.

So the Pawn exchange gained a move for Black, while the "Qxd5 then retreats to d8" maneuver lost two moves.

So: Black ends up one tempo down, not two. 

In return, he liquidates the e4-Pawn and can set up a solid Caro-Kann type formation.

I get what you're saying, but white still has a knight developed and the next move.

Yes, but he starts the game with "the next move", so you can't connect that to the opening system chosen by Black.

I understand, but now he has the next move with a knight developed. When the game started white had the next move but hadn't yet developed any pieces.

Yes, that's why I said that this opening costs Black ONE tempo.

Please read my post before replying to it.

When you see the moves 2. ... Qxd5 and 3. ... Qd8, you might get the impression that the opening costs Black TWO tempi, but that is incorrect. White loses a move with the Pawn exchange, so the net cost of the Scandinavian is ONE tempo.

And in return, Black knocks out the e-Pawn and gets a very solid Caro-Kann formation.

It's worth noting that playing a direct Caro-Kann ALSO costs Black one tempo, since his d-Pawn moves twice (d7-d5 and dxe4) and then is exchanged for a White e-Pawn that moved only once.

Oh, okay, so we're referring to the same thing. Black is down two tempi, one because he's always down one, a second because of the particular opening. 

I'm not at all familiar with the Caro-Kann so I'd have to read up on that in order to understand the rest of your comment.

I'd apologize for not reading your post first, except I did. But I'm really, truly sorry that I misunderstood "down one tempo" as what I would have phrased as "down one additional tempo", and not realizing that you meant "COSTS black one tempo" (as you said in your recent post). I sincerely hope you can forgive me, I may cry myself to sleep tonight thinking of the pain I must have caused you.

Thanks.

There’s a book about it on Chessable. IM Bartholemew gets good activity on the queenside with it.

I am not sure it is fair to say Black is a tempo down on white after first move.

Maybe half a move?

Check out three of the best Scandinavian Defense clubs here at Chess.com:

Scandinavian Defense 1.e4 d5

Scandinavian Defense 3...Qd6 Variation

Scandinavian Defense 2...Nf6 Variation