The most "non-Silician" 2. move after 1. e4 c5

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ShadowIKnight
jetfighter13 wrote:

after 1. e4 c5 I sugest to leave most theory with the move in the diagram


LOLED HARD. 

TimorousBeastie
IMDeviate wrote:

1. e4 c5 2. f4 leads to some fun


2...d5! =

Ben_Dubuque
ShadowIKnight wrote:
jetfighter13 wrote:

after 1. e4 c5 I sugest to leave most theory with the move in the diagram


LOLED HARD. 


 Glad another follower of King Lenny showed up

dozeoff

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the almost-sound Smith-Morra gambit:

2. d4, cxd4, 3. c3

Is that completely forgotten these days?

jittu

1e4 c5

2.g3...?1   also possible.... white nvr prepared for this slow move .. u just undrestand of coming structure of white side ...than apply-- !!

VanillaCokehead

1. e4 c5 2. h4!! 1/2-1/2 the only move that gets a draw, every thing else is a forced loss for white.

ShadowIKnight
VanillaCokehead wrote:

1. e4 c5 2. h4!! 1/2-1/2 the only move that gets a draw, every thing else is a forced loss for white.


is e4 that bad? Hmm, well theres still a lot of play isnt there?
Can I say d4 is a forced win for white? Hmm no? Wait, its not disastrous as e4 is for white? what? wait what? you claim that e4 c5 is forced loss for white unless he plays h4?!! really? explain please :D 

I actually think e4 c5 a4!! is the only move that gets a draw, every thing else is a forced loss for white.

ShadowIKnight
melvinbluestone wrote:
VanillaCokehead wrote:

1. e4 c5 2. h4!! 1/2-1/2 the only move that gets a draw, every thing else is a forced loss for white.


 Just for making a rash comment like this, I'll fix your wagon: Not only is 2.h4? an unsound bunch of hooey, but it loses by force to 2.d3!! As I stated before, 1.e4 c5? 2.Qh5! wins in all variations.


show me a diagram please, i know ur one to not joke around. Seriously, if that is the case, i might give it a try.

ShadowIKnight

ooh it certainly isnt losing, and takes sicilian players into new ground! :D But hmm, I dont know, its like a gambit without the gambit, so in return for the worse "game", you also dont exactly get your play and black can actually find it quite easy to play on the new ground there. I don't like it.

Skewy

Well, I have analyzed the line I plaed earlier and have examined it a little bit further:
(of cource, this all assumes that black accepts the gambit.)
Spiffe

2.Qh5 was a good suggestion.  I think the right answer, though, is Ke2.

From a practical standpoint, the "real" move that I think provides the most divergence is 2.d3, entering a King's Indian Attack.

CommieBDav94

kwaloffer
dozeoff wrote:

I'm surprised that no one has mentioned the almost-sound Smith-Morra gambit:

2. d4, cxd4, 3. c3

Is that completely forgotten these days?


But the Morra is very similar to the Open Sicilian. In the Open White sacrifices some positional features in exchange for an attack, in the Morra he also throws in a pawn. But the sort of play is very Sicilian-like, and the question was how to get positions that aren't like a typical Sicilian.

I think the best answer is 2.c3. It leads to a different type of game.

kwaloffer
melvinbluestone wrote:

In one sense, 2.c3 may be the most tried and true "anti-sicilian" idea. But I maintain that 2.e5 is a viable alternative. Moving the pawn twice may seem questionable, but you could argue that black's 1...c5, as popular as it is, slightly misdirects the action from the center. The e- and d- pawns are more "central" than the c- or f- pawns. So this may justify the double pawn move for white. If 2...Nc6 3.Nf3 d6 4.Bb5. And if 2...d5, there's 3.b4!?, mentioned earlier or simply 3.d4, like this:


After 1.e4 c5 2.e5 d5 3.d4, Black is a tempo up on the normal line 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5. He basically gets an Advance French with the huge advantage of being able to play the queen's bishop to f5 or g4 before he plays ...e6.

Ben_Dubuque

wow I totaly missed that haha, But hey I was stuck in the Bongcloud so its understandable

BlueKnightShade
kwaloffer wrote:

After 1.e4 c5 2.e5 d5 3.d4, Black is a tempo up on the normal line 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5. He basically gets an Advance French with the huge advantage of being able to play the queen's bishop to f5 or g4 before he plays ...e6.


Actually 1 e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 is advance Caro-Kann with an early c5, but your point remains the same.

BetaStrategy
BlueKnightShade wrote:
kwaloffer wrote:

After 1.e4 c5 2.e5 d5 3.d4, Black is a tempo up on the normal line 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3.e5 c5. He basically gets an Advance French with the huge advantage of being able to play the queen's bishop to f5 or g4 before he plays ...e6.


Actually 1 e4 c6 2. d4 d5 3. e5 c5 is advance Caro-Kann with an early c5, but your point remains the same.


There's no "actually" to be determined here.  It's not really a Caro OR a French.  The resulting position here is a hybrid of the two, which isn't in book for either, for the specific reason that the resulting lines would be terrible for white, and so don't merit a place in the theory of either opening.

It can be thought of as either a French with the bishop outside the pawn chain or a Caro with an extra tempo for black.  But it isn't "actually" either one.  It's the best of both worlds from the black side. 

BlueKnightShade

It is in fact Caro-Kann  (but most openings can evolve into other openings).

Caro-Kann mainline starts this way: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5, then white can continue with the advance variation by playing 3. e5. Black has different continuations here of which 3... Bf5 is very common and 3... c5 is another option. And right there we have the moves you posted: 1.e4 c6 2.d4 d5 3. e5 c5. So that is indeed Caro-Kann.

By the way, one of the differences between Caro-Kann and French is that the bishop on c8 can get out to f5 or g4 because the e-pawn is still standing at home.

Caro-Kann Defence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caro-Kann_Defence

vlady92

It's spelled 'Defense'. They should make a separate Wikipedia with British spelling Sealed

RJRChess

I was wondering why Smith Morra hadn't been mentioned yet.  That's a pretty anti-Sicilian opening.  I enjoy playing 1.e4 c5 2.d4 cxd4 3.c3 dxc3 4.Bc4 cxb2 5.Bxb2 then black has to be careful or a brutal attack is coming on the kingside.