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Transitions and transpositions

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Yigor
tmkroll wrote:

Yigor, what you're saying would make sense if you took position A and then moved pieces (not making chess moves just changing the position) in order to arrive at position B. This would not be a transposition, it would just be one position being changed into another. When people use the word "transposition" to describe something like a game beginning as a Caro-Kann but then reaching a Queen's Gambit position or something like that what they mean is that a Queen's Gambit position has been arrived at via transposition from the Caro-Kann. E.g. what we are looking at momentarily is a position from the Queen's Gambit that can be continued in that opening but the moves order is not a Queen's Gambit move order, 2. d4 was played instead of 1. d4 etc... If you want to be strict about the meaning of the word in that sense the "transposing" we are talking about the permutation of the moves and the move order of the Queen's Gambit not something the process of changing from one opening to another. As Deidreskye has pointed out, however, the use of transposition to go from one opening to another is pretty much always the way it comes up in the literature as it is useful. You can also transpose to known positions from garbage move orders, but there's generally no point to talking about those. I have, however, sometimes seen very old games analyzed and a few of the first moves explained by annotator with something like "well chess theory then was not what is was now; now we would play ___ first" followed by at point in the game something like "but already here we have transposed into a Slav which is still played today." Perhaps Deirdreskye does not like it when annotators do that, or when they explain that one game (not opening or position) transposes into another game but I feel those are valid uses of the term. If you think about it the way you are thinking about it instead, as transposition being only the process of changing from one opening to another, then I guess you can imagine some abuse of language is happening to get that word to mean that thing; that's not really happening, though. If you look at it the other way, you will notice transposition (even by your mathematical definition) is occurring in order to arrive at your position B.

 

Hey, bro, thanks for this long explanatory post! wink.png I started this (a bit humoristic) thread against DeirdreSkye who attacked an other participant saying that he doesn't know what is transposition. However, it turned out that Skye doesn't know the formal definition himself (well, now he has finally got it). I agree that this formal definition in mathematical terms of permutations of move orders is not terribly useful. It was just to show to our wonderful participant Skye that he's not as omniscient as he pretends to be. tongue.pngpeshka.png

Vofdy

Yigor, are you a mathematician? Your way of explaining the Logic behind the words, made me wonder .D

 Anyways, an Position is a noun which describes either the physical or psychological state of something. But never could describe, the process to move from position A to position B. which means Transposition cannot describe the transposing (!!!!) from position A to the Transposition B from the usual position C. A=default position =/= chess starting position C=Our relating Position and B=our Position which is the same as our related position C but reached via another move order  

ponz111

DeirdreSkye  You disparage other chess players way too much...

Yigor
Vofdy wrote:

Yigor, are you a mathematician? Your way of explaining the Logic behind the words, made me wonder .D

 

Yes, right. I work in Toulouse University (France). wink.png

Yigor
DeirdreSkye wrote:
ponz111 wrote:

DeirdreSkye  You disparage other chess players way too much...

No I don't. Yigor is not a chessplayer! Not even close!

 

LMAO grin.png What do I do with chess if I don't play it ?!? tongue.png

BlueKnightShade
Yigor wrote:

This is just a little taxonomical lesson for our omniscient participants and international masters who somehow were unable to understand it. 

 

I = Initial position; A and B any 2 legal chess positions in databases.

 

Every position A has the standard sequence of moves I-->A called the main line. Any other sequence of moves I-->A is called a transposition. If there is a sequence I-->B-->A, by abuse of language, it's called a transposition from B to A. However, correctly, it should be called a transition (or transfer) from B to A. 

 

"He/she who has ears to hear, let him/her hear" (Jesus Christ). 

Well, usually you have mainlines and sidelines and transpositions from one opening into another opening. I think that is the normal usage of the words. Instead of transpose you could say transition or transform and probably also transfer although the latter seems slightly awkward to me. But transpose is the normal word that is applied and it is a correct usage of the word in that it fits the dictionary definition of the word.

Yigor
BlueKnightShade wrote:

Well, usually you have mainlines and sidelines and transpositions from one opening into another opening. I think that is the normal usage of the words. Instead of transpose you could say transition or transform and probably also transfer although the latter seems slightly awkward to me. But transpose is the normal word that is applied and it is a correct usage of the word in that it fits the dictionary definition of the word.

 

Actually, I wrote something similar in my post #18. The verb "to transpose" has 2 meanings. The second meaning is just a synonym of "to transfer". Normally, chess players use this one. settings.png

BlueKnightShade
Yigor wrote:

Actually, I wrote something similar in my post #18. The verb "to transpose" has 2 meanings. The second meaning is just a synonym of "to transfer". Normally, chess players use this one. 

Here you can find some more definitions:

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transpose

I was thinking of the second definition:

2 : to change in form or nature : transform

One could argue whether it fits completely of course, but transpose is the term that has become a term in chess.

Some of the definitions in the link above are special to a certain subject. I think we can say the same regarding chess that transpose has become special to chess; it has become a part of chess terminology.

Here is an interesting article on transpositions in chess:

https://www.chess.com/article/view/transpositions

Yigor
BlueKnightShade wrote:

Here is an interesting article on transpositions in chess:

https://www.chess.com/article/view/transpositions

 

Notice that in this article the author writes: "Transpositions are the possibility to reach a particular opening position using a different move order". So, here the word "transposition" is taken in its 1st meaning (="exchange of move order") like in my 1st post here and similar to the wikipedia definition. wink.png

BlueKnightShade
Yigor wrote:

 

Notice that in this article the author writes: "Transpositions are the possibility to reach a particular opening position using a different move order". So, here the word "transposition" is taken in its 1st meaning (="exchange of move order") like in my 1st post here and similar to the wikipedia definition. 

Well, whether you relate it to "exchange of move order" or to "to change in form or nature" doesn't really matter I would say.

 

Here is the etymology of the word:

 

History and Etymology for transpose

Verb

Middle English, from Anglo-French transposer, from Latin transponere (perfect indicative transposui) to change the position of, from trans- + ponere to put, place — more at position

 

Can be found on this Link: https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/transpose

Yigor
DeirdreSkye wrote:

This is a chess term and it's English etymology is irrelevant just like other chess terms. For example the chess term "hanging" has nothing to do with the etymology of the word "hanging" either it is used for the well known pawn structure or for undefended pieces and pawns. Even the term "attack" has nothing to do with the etymology of the word attack as in chess it doesn't actually classify an attack(Steinitz attack in French defense was never an attack).     

 

Sorry, but your understanding of transpositions in chess was biased and incomplete. blitz.png U thought that 2 openings are necessary in order to make a transposition. However, it's not the case in general. U can take just 1 opening and alter the standard move order. blitz.png And it's not only me or wikipedia definition, BlueKnightShade's reference shows that it's the correct and standard definition used by many players. peshka.png

BlueKnightShade
DeirdreSkye wrote:
Yigor wrote:

 And it's not only me or wikipedia definition, BlueKnightShade's reference shows that it's the correct and standard definition used by many players. 

Yeah, you try to understand chess with wikipedia and English vocabulary.Good luck with that!

What's next? Cosmopolitan, Penthouse and Harry Potter?Maybe Kardashians?

    

I have seen nobody trying to understand chess with wikipedia and English vocabulary. Don't know how you got that idea. It is not about understanding chess, it is about understanding the background of a chess term. The vocabulary gives definitions of the word and etymology tells the origin. Thus you can understand why it makes sense that "transpose" has been chosen as a chess term. In chess it of course has a chess meaning.

muellersteffanie

This is very nice, i learn it at the ski holidays italy

 

https://www.belvita.it/en/

Yigor
DeirdreSkye wrote:
Yigor wrote:

 And it's not only me or wikipedia definition, BlueKnightShade's reference shows that it's the correct and standard definition used by many players. 

Yeah, you try to understand chess with wikipedia and English vocabulary.Good luck with that!

What's next? Cosmopolitan, Penthouse and Harry Potter?Maybe Kardashians? 

 

Even Kardashian has a better knowledge about transpositions than U. blitz.png A transposition in chess is not always a naive transform from a position A to a position B (as U think). peshka.png

swarminglocusts

In many ways books are becoming less used and the internet is a quicker access to knowledge, even if it is wikipedia. The same issue can be found in science you can only designate what c is and if it is a constant for which discipline. The physics peoples ;-) say that they had to use the Greek alphabet because they ran out of letters. Lastly, it’s difficult to rewrite history because many important parts are in a specific language and terminology. Learn the nuances and live with it, or accept it and move on. Nice math above.

Yigor
lovebecause wrote:

In many ways books are becoming less used and the internet is a quicker access to knowledge, even if it is wikipedia. The same issue can be found in science you can only designate what c is and if it is a constant for which discipline. The physics peoples ;-) say that they had to use the Greek alphabet because they ran out of letters. Lastly, it’s difficult to rewrite history because many important parts are in a specific language and terminology. Learn the nuances and live with it, or accept it and move on. Nice math above.

 

Hey, bro, long time no see! wink.png

cchheessss1236

@Yigor as you are a mathematician, what if you define transpositions in terms of operations on an abelian group?

swarminglocusts
Yigor wrote:
lovebecause wrote:

In many ways books are becoming less used and the internet is a quicker access to knowledge, even if it is wikipedia. The same issue can be found in science you can only designate what c is and if it is a constant for which discipline. The physics peoples ;-) say that they had to use the Greek alphabet because they ran out of letters. Lastly, it’s difficult to rewrite history because many important parts are in a specific language and terminology. Learn the nuances and live with it, or accept it and move on. Nice math above.

 

Hey, bro, long time no see! 

😊

LiteDave

Wikipedia has an article (of course!?):

Transposition (chess) - Wikipedia

Yigor
LiteDave wrote:

Wikipedia has an article (of course!?):

Transposition (chess) - Wikipedia

Hahaha... thanks, Dave! I forgot about this thread. peshka