What do you think is the best opening for black after e4?

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Avatar of GIex

Yes, but White isn't forced to play this variation. He could have played 2.c3 or whatever he wants. You can't claim 1... c5 to be ultimate because you like one of the variations. The variation that's played depends on your opponent too. So does game outcome even when you like the variation, since the opponent may finish it better.

Avatar of TheOldReb
TripleXDooM wrote:
Reb wrote:

Above master level the sicilian(s) do better against  1 e4  than other black responses. I am not at all sure if this is also true below master level. The info in huge databases can be misleading as there are many games in them that are between very weak players and even unrated players. Some of the largest databases also include even blitz and bullet games just to boast a huge number of games. I would trust more a database without so many "junk" games in them but dont know if they are even available. 


true that, you seem pretty good at the sicilian with the NM at the front of the name, what first move for black do you prefer??


I play sicilian(s) most often against 1 e4 with the french defense as a backup . They are my two main defenses against 1 e4 .  In the sicilian I may play classical, sveshnikov and very rarely play also najdorf or dragon . In the french I play usually winawer , when allowed, but sometimes also play classical. I am talking about serious otb play as I may play anything when its not serious/otb. 

Avatar of TripleXDooM
GIex wrote:

Yes, but White isn't forced to play this variation. He could have played 2.c3 or whatever he wants. You can't claim 1... c5 to be ultimate because you like one of the variations. The variation that's played depends on your opponent too. So does game outcome even when you like the variation, since the opponent may finish it better.


true, the oppenent might not even know the lines to the sicilian or might play unorthodox :P

Avatar of TripleXDooM
Reb wrote:
TripleXDooM wrote:
Reb wrote:

Above master level the sicilian(s) do better against  1 e4  than other black responses. I am not at all sure if this is also true below master level. The info in huge databases can be misleading as there are many games in them that are between very weak players and even unrated players. Some of the largest databases also include even blitz and bullet games just to boast a huge number of games. I would trust more a database without so many "junk" games in them but dont know if they are even available. 


true that, you seem pretty good at the sicilian with the NM at the front of the name, what first move for black do you prefer??


I play sicilian(s) most often against 1 e4 with the french defense as a backup . They are my two main defenses against 1 e4 .  In the sicilian I may play classical, sveshnikov and very rarely play also najdorf or dragon . In the french I play usually winawer , when allowed, but sometimes also play classical. I am talking about serious otb play as I may play anything when its not serious/otb. 


but isnt the ruy lopez good?? the exchange variation gives a white bishop for a knight but ruins the pawn structure of black. I usually play ruy lopez as its mainly the one i study :D

Avatar of TheOldReb
TripleXDooM wrote:
Reb wrote:
TripleXDooM wrote:
Reb wrote:

Above master level the sicilian(s) do better against  1 e4  than other black responses. I am not at all sure if this is also true below master level. The info in huge databases can be misleading as there are many games in them that are between very weak players and even unrated players. Some of the largest databases also include even blitz and bullet games just to boast a huge number of games. I would trust more a database without so many "junk" games in them but dont know if they are even available. 


true that, you seem pretty good at the sicilian with the NM at the front of the name, what first move for black do you prefer??


I play sicilian(s) most often against 1 e4 with the french defense as a backup . They are my two main defenses against 1 e4 .  In the sicilian I may play classical, sveshnikov and very rarely play also najdorf or dragon . In the french I play usually winawer , when allowed, but sometimes also play classical. I am talking about serious otb play as I may play anything when its not serious/otb. 


but isnt the ruy lopez good?? the exchange variation gives a white bishop for a knight but ruins the pawn structure of black. I usually play ruy lopez as its mainly the one i study :D


Sure the Ruy is good and I like playing both sides of it. The problem with playing 1...e5 as black though is that there's many other things white can play and you need to be prepared for all of them, which means a lot of work. 

Avatar of LAexpress12
GIex wrote:
LAexpress12 wrote:

everyone that thinks that the KIA and c3 refutes/ makes it hard for black in the sicilian, your so stupid, you just don't understand what the point of c5 is, honestly. c5 is the best choice if your trying for a win. GMs have played it WAY more then e5 against e4. lol if they didnt like c3 and the KIA would they play it? i think not.


If KIA and c3 don't make it hard for Black, why should c5 make it hard for White?

And if 1. e4 c5 was a winning line for Black, why should White play 1. e4 at all? Isn't it a mistake? 1. e4? c5! looks too strange.

GMs don't fear being countered with 1... c5 as White more or less than they fear playing against c3 and the KIA as Black.

The interrelationship between White's and Black's play is way too high and too complex to claim there is an overwhelming Black's reply at his very first move in the game. After all, chess is not a solved game, and it will remain such for a very long time. At least until it keeps being played competitively.


c5 isnt necessarily winning, its a challenge to whites threat to take the centre. this makes it the most annoying move for white to deal with, along with being aggresive, solid, and has the best results in the grandmaster games. and c5 is played significantly more than e5 is, in gm games.

Avatar of KyleMayhugh

If I were playing a grandmaster, I'd be very worried about c5 (or anything else, really).

Against a class player? I *hope* they play it. I score better against it than any other black defense. It's a power tool, to be sure, but in unskilled hands, black is more likely to hurt himself than me.

Avatar of segway123

i am a huge supporter of 1...e5 you can say the scicilian is better but 1...e5 i always think is be best. and i dont even like bobby fisher

Avatar of Insane_Chess

I don't 1...c5 for a few reasons; mainly because it can lead to very sharp positions where one wrong move can lead to disaster (for you or your opponent). I prefer to play positionally when I can.

Avatar of milestogo2

Ok pal,let me explain it to you in clear English.  The normal winning % for White with 1. e4 is 38.4%, draws are 31.9%, and losses are 29.7%.  The normal percentages for 1. d4 are White wins 38.7%, draws are 34.6% and losses are 26.7%. This is from the game explorer on this website .  Not exactly  a NORMAL 54% white wins figure as you claimed earlier.  Now I suggest you quit picking on poor Glex, and cut YOUR losses.

Avatar of GIex
RoseQueen1985 wrote:
GIex wrote:
RoseQueen1985 wrote:
GIex wrote:
RoseQueen1985 wrote:
GIex wrote:
RoseQueen1985 wrote:
GIex wrote:

Where did you get those statistics from? 54.1% winning chance is too much for a game between equally skilled players.


chess isn't 50-50. White has better prospects,always.


Yes. But winning 54% of the time is crushing.


Wrong again. 54-55% is NORMAL for white. Bad openings can give white as much as 70% winning chances. 54% is hardly "crushing". Stop exaggerating. 


Drawing chance eludes you. If you win 54%, you won't lose 46%. Claiming the opposite is what is actually exaggerated. Also, you can't win 70% of your games against an equally skilled opponent. If you assume your opponent will make a mistake, why do you assume you'll be correct? Bad openings can give white 70% losing chances too, but we are talking about good openings. Be more objective.


you are clearly missing the point. I'm not talking about (nor is anyone else),about MY SKILL vs OTHERS OF SAME SKILL. We are talking about plain statistics.  You cannot "argue" this. You cannot "oppose" it. They are cold hard numbers that stare you in the face. Whitewins slightly more often than black,even against opponents of equal skill. Even if white and black plain sound openings, white still has the slightly better prospects, but nothing too crushing. 


Sorry, but I have already explained what I think about using statistics (as well as any other data) as an argument. You have to present them. Otherwise you are guessing.

And if you are not talking about equally skilled players, why did you spend so much time (and so much of my time) on disputing, provided I have written that at the very beginning?

Or you want to say "Garry Kasparov will beat everyone with the sicilian. That's why everyone should play the sicilian."?


^ this nonsense reply clearly demostrates you can't read in English or make sense of simple paragraphs. Nothing that you say even comes close to responding to what I'm telling you.


Last time I checked, "game between equally skilled players" was read "game between equally skilled players" in English. Isn't it? If you knew how to read, you wouldn't spend so much time to figure that out. If you can't cope with reading, at least don't write stupid things and don't try to convince other people in nonsenses. Learn to read or ask someone to help you. I hope your responses will be more relevant thereafter.

Avatar of GIex
LAexpress12 wrote:
c5 isnt necessarily winning, its a challenge to whites threat to take the centre. this makes it the most annoying move for white to deal with, along with being aggresive, solid, and has the best results in the grandmaster games. and c5 is played significantly more than e5 is, in gm games.

Caro-Kann also challenges the center, and it is a very solid defense that gives White few opportunities in the early game, mainly because Black can close the center and use side pawn breaks if White doesn't exchange his e pawn.

Also, the sicilian's popularity in GM games is to a big extent influenced by the fact that it is very thoroughly studied, and there is much theory about it going into very deep variations. I think that will favor an experienced player with excellent opening knowledge who is proficient with different possibilities. I think playing the sicilian is a must-know for any high level player both as White and Black, for both offense and defense. It's like the cold war weapon mania.

But a must-know doesn't necessarily mean best. Throughout chess history, many openings have been crowned and dethroned as being the best, and that was mainly because of fashion and opening theory development fluctuations, and there are many openings to come and go in the future. Time has proved that every new opening can be countered, and that's because chess theory is a developing matter (and it will be until the game is conceivably solved, which is not in the foreseeable future). If other openings are studied as thoroughly as the sicilian, I believe they will be a strong weapon, because they will be less expected by the opponent. In GM matches, opponent dependant preparation is a big part of the success. That's why brilliances are so important and investigated in pregame preparation (what else could a GM work on?). I believe originality and ingenuity are what one needs to become a stronger player.

Avatar of TripleXDooM
Reb wrote:
TripleXDooM wrote:
Reb wrote:
TripleXDooM wrote:
Reb wrote:

Above master level the sicilian(s) do better against  1 e4  than other black responses. I am not at all sure if this is also true below master level. The info in huge databases can be misleading as there are many games in them that are between very weak players and even unrated players. Some of the largest databases also include even blitz and bullet games just to boast a huge number of games. I would trust more a database without so many "junk" games in them but dont know if they are even available. 


true that, you seem pretty good at the sicilian with the NM at the front of the name, what first move for black do you prefer??


I play sicilian(s) most often against 1 e4 with the french defense as a backup . They are my two main defenses against 1 e4 .  In the sicilian I may play classical, sveshnikov and very rarely play also najdorf or dragon . In the french I play usually winawer , when allowed, but sometimes also play classical. I am talking about serious otb play as I may play anything when its not serious/otb. 


but isnt the ruy lopez good?? the exchange variation gives a white bishop for a knight but ruins the pawn structure of black. I usually play ruy lopez as its mainly the one i study :D


Sure the Ruy is good and I like playing both sides of it. The problem with playing 1...e5 as black though is that there's many other things white can play and you need to be prepared for all of them, which means a lot of work. 


personally i like only use(for white) the Ruy Lopez, Ponziani, Scotch Game well i cant actually play them unless black does the right followers (1... e5, 2... Nc6) they sould do like 2... d6 and then thats the philidor defence. They might even do the petroff :L

Avatar of ozzie_c_cobblepot
Doesn't 54.1% for white mean include both wins and draws?
Avatar of GIex
ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:
Doesn't 54.1% for white mean include both wins and draws?

It depends. If it includes, it's called scoring chance, not winning chance. Scoring chance = winning chance + 1/2 drawing chance.

For example, I have converted yusuf_prasojo's data's winning and drawing chances into scoring chances in post #85 in this topic.

Avatar of TripleXDooM
ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:
Doesn't 54.1% for white mean include both wins and draws?

i dont think so :L but it might...

Avatar of milestogo2

The normal winning + draw %  is about 70 % , see my above post.

Avatar of PK-Ripper
milestogo2 wrote:

The normal winning + draw %  is about 70 % , see my above post.


You don't score a full point for a draw.  You score half a point (in most scoring systems, anyway).

That's why when somebody says white "scores 54%" in some opening, what they mean is something like white WINS 34% and DRAWS 40%.  Which is to say, 34 + (.5 x 40) = 54.

And yes, math nerds, the superfluous parentheses were added merely for emphasis.

Avatar of milestogo2

Thanks for clearing up that distinction between "winning" and "scoring". I think I knew that at one time but forgot.  However, the original argument here started with the comment - White wins 54%-  which I knew wasn't true.  No doubt, "scores" is what was intended.

Avatar of SemperParatus

The Alekhine and Caro-Kann have both worked well for me over the years. My theory is that both of these openings offer a solid defence for Black, while presenting many chances for White to get into trouble.