What is a better opening Scandanavian or Benoni

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Avatar of Elubas

I hope you don't assume your opponent is bad and doesn't understand your opening. then he's probably just a bad player. I think it has more success against a player who is weaker than you so that you can prove to them that the opening wins. But against someone of equal or higher strength, I wonder what the results of always benoni would be. It's just very shaky theoretically making it at the very least risky. I differ it from the KID simply because although it has been challenged it seems to be in better shape than the benoni. It's mostly just the bayonet attack that's becoming a slight problem. Why are you trying to get me think that the benoni is really good because it's almost refuted? And that Kasparov is crazy and he's wrong about what he says? He's a pretty strong player, why flat out deny what he says?

Elubas wrote:

Against e5 only the ruy lopez can give white an advantage with best play.


I couldn't disagree more.  Black achieves equality with relative ease in the Ruy Lopez.  For proof, look at the draw rate in GM games - it's 50% or more!  White doesn't play the Ruy because it offers him an advantage, he plays it because it leads to rich middlegames with plenty of opportunities to outplay his opponent.

Looks like you also disagree with robking because he said almost any opening leads to advantage for white. I don't know about other variations, but when I look at mco in the chigorin and breyer variations, most seem to give white a slight edge. The draws at top level play are probably because the advantage is too small and the gm can easily hold the draw. After all, ...e5 is probably the most solid and reliable defense of all. I just thought I could rely on mco! What secondary source do you go by? I think white plays it for both reasons. I am not someone who blindly critisize openings. I had a lot of reasons to call it "unreliable". In the scandiv black can hold a draw more easily but with benoni he could lose many times especially against a well prepared opponent. The problem is made worse that even if black plays all the right moves, white can still get a nice position. It's definitley not an easy opening, and black has to deal with white's center and a4 moves prevetning ...b5. That great advance was always hard for me in my games. So I wouldn't play this thing fearlessley. Ever try the Benko Gambit? I think it's a better version of the benoni because it can take over the initiative, for many moves so black's only problem is the extra pawn which he can try to neutralize.

Avatar of marvellosity
Elubas wrote:

Against e5 only the ruy lopez can give white an advantage with best play.


I couldn't disagree more.  Black achieves equality with relative ease in the Ruy Lopez.  For proof, look at the draw rate in GM games - it's 50% or more!  White doesn't play the Ruy because it offers him an advantage, he plays it because it leads to rich middlegames with plenty of opportunities to outplay his opponent.


The draw rate in most openings are 50% more for GMs. Theoreticians and GMs agree that the Ruy Lopez is practically *the* one opening where White can rely on a slight advantage to try to exploit. Kasparov, Karpov... the list is endless.

There's a reason it's called the 'Spanish Torture'.

Avatar of Elubas

Maybe the "Berlin Wall" is the drawish line?

Avatar of Nytik

Recent developments in the Italian Game seem to suggest that a slight advantage can be gained for white there, too... perhaps as much as in the Ruy Lopez, though I can't be certain. Here's a video referrence:

http://www.chess.com/video/player/trend-breaking-novelties-italian-game

Avatar of Maroon_25
RobKing wrote:

Bobby Fischer used to claim that the King's Gambit was losing as White and was terrible. He then proceded to get his ass handed to him by Spassky in a game in which Spassky played what opening? The King's Gambit.

Also, if you have been watching any of Roman Dzindzichashvili's videos, you'd know that even the most well known theoreical openings are open for improvement and lines that were thought to be good are not good at all and vise versa. That is where the term "novelty" stems from. 

Just because Kasparov thinks that the Benoni is not good does not mean that he has not lost may games against it. I can see if we were making talking about the Polish opening or other very odd openings but let's be serious. 


RobKing, when you say "Fischer used to claim the KG was losing for White," do you mean that article he wrote ("A Bust to the King's Gambit") or just interview comments that he'd made?  I think the article was written after his KG loss to Spassky.  According to the source below, the article helped move GMs (except Morozevich!) away from the KG, and Spassky never ventured to play the KG against Fischer ever again.

http://www.academicchess.org/Games/chessviewer/Fisherbustkingsgambit.shtml

As for post that said Kasparov claims that the Ruy Lopez is the only opening offering White an advantage after 1. e4 e5, I don't deny he's said that at some point, but he has also said (I believe in the '90s) that the Scotch is the only OTHER opening offering White an advantage after 1. e4 e5 -- implying that the Spanish wasn't (any longer) the only one.

I disagree with the whole "your-rating-is-too-low-to-comment" notion, because the person may be citing a source that is extremely ... well, reliable (ECO, MCO, some computer programs).  But I suppose us low-rated players shouldn't be making too many claims about the lines of analysis based on our own chess thinking.   

Avatar of RobKing
jkpastorius wrote:

I disagree with the whole "your-rating-is-too-low-to-comment" notion, because the person may be citing a source that is extremely ... well, reliable (ECO, MCO, some computer programs).  But I suppose us low-rated players shouldn't be making too many claims about the lines of analysis based on our own chess thinking.   


 Nobody should make any claims about lines until they understand why they are good or bad. I find it absolutely ridiculous to talk about things so adamently when you do not understand what you are talking. When somebody shows here by careful analysis that these openings are flawed then I will listen. The rating is too comment reflects this and only this.

For instance, as White I play the Botvinnik system against the Semi-Slav. This has been said to be not good and blah blah blah. I do not know the points that the greatest GMs speak of to refute the line and therefore I cannot claim it to be bad. I have played great games that stem from it and it leads to very tactical and scary positions that requires both sides keep on their toes.

So, of everybody here claiming that the Benoni is bad, post some analysis and not just some copy pasted crap. Give some real analysis to show us that you understand why it is not good and why it should never be played again.

Avatar of marvellosity
jkpastorius wrote:

and Spassky never ventured to play the KG against Fischer ever again.


Given Spassky only played the KG 30-40 times, it's hardly surprising that he never played it against him again. Statistically it would be pretty unlikely.

Avatar of Elubas
RobKing wrote:
jkpastorius wrote:

I disagree with the whole "your-rating-is-too-low-to-comment" notion, because the person may be citing a source that is extremely ... well, reliable (ECO, MCO, some computer programs).  But I suppose us low-rated players shouldn't be making too many claims about the lines of analysis based on our own chess thinking.   


 Nobody should make any claims about lines until they understand why they are good or bad. I find it absolutely ridiculous to talk about things so adamently when you do not understand what you are talking. When somebody shows here by careful analysis that these openings are flawed then I will listen. The rating is too comment reflects this and only this.

For instance, as White I play the Botvinnik system against the Semi-Slav. This has been said to be not good and blah blah blah. I do not know the points that the greatest GMs speak of to refute the line and therefore I cannot claim it to be bad. I have played great games that stem from it and it leads to very tactical and scary positions that requires both sides keep on their toes.

So, of everybody here claiming that the Benoni is bad, post some analysis and not just some copy pasted crap. Give some real analysis to show us that you understand why it is not good and why it should never be played again.


Ok, first of all, why do I have to post analysis of my own that the benoni isn't so great? You have to be very strong to actually come up with real lines of your own!! Why don't you then post some of your own analysis that the benoni is extremely good? And you assuming I don't know anything about the benoni and only look for gm comments is completely wrong. I have looked into the benoni quite a bit for both white and black (and yes with help of mco!) and I do in fact understand it quite a bit. Do you really want me to go through the typical plans for white and black just so that my comment can be valid? Well I could. There are many dangerous lines for black. I know black has plans for counterplay, but white's threats can be more pressing and as a result black's strategy is harder to get done and if he doesn't get it done he will likely lose. This makes the Benoni risky at the very best if nothing worse. People love the counterattacking nature of the benoni, but many including me (though I could try a new move order) have saved the benoni for suprises for a reason. It can be hard to meet when you don't see it coming but that's the best part of it.

Avatar of aansel

I think the Benoni is fine--as Nunn said playing the Benoni against God may be a forced loss (and perhaps Kasparov) but against any one else it is fine. I would be happy to play anybody a game where I play the Benoni. I have not used it as my main defense for years but am confident  that the result of the game will not be because of the opening but because one side erred in the middlegame/endgame.

These evaluations that GM"s use are meaningless to all of us mere mortals +/=,=, or unclear mean nothing as the game still needs to be played out. 

I think these discussions are kind of inane where everyone discusses the soundness of various openings when the resulting positions are beyond most people's chess understanding, especially mine.

Avatar of ozzie_c_cobblepot

Scandinavian is better.

Avatar of ozzie_c_cobblepot
Elubas wrote:
RobKing wrote:

I'm very confused on how people rated 1500 can deem a very popular and sound opening unreliable...

Theoretically, White always has a slight advantage from the opening as long as they play it well. I myself prefer the Benoni because it gives plenty of counterplay for black. In the Scandanavian White develops as he pleases and the whole idea is that black tries to make white regret developing the Knight to c3. They are both sound openings but to say that the Benoni is "unreliable" is not really correct. When I see a title next to your name then I may take your word for it...but still play it because until you are at a master level none of these debates matter.


Ok, in modern chess openings it says "many grandmasters consider the Benoni simply unreliable." and Kasparov says it's terrible. In the taimanov variation, the natural move by black has been refuted so he has to deal with the less natural retreat, securing white a moderate advantage. I'm not biased at all towards the benoni; in fact, I used to love it and finding out about the theoretical problems of it made me stop playing it!


  1. What is the Taimanov variation?
  2. What is "the natural move by black"?
  3. What is "the less natural retreat"?
Avatar of Elubas

The taimanov is 1 d4 nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e6 4 Nc3 exd5 5 cxd5 d6 6 e4 g6 7 f4 Bg7 8 Bb5+. This is awkward for black to meet because if 8...Nbd7 the natural move then white can try to win a piece with e5 followed by attacking the knight. These lines are good for white so black has to play 8...Nfd7 with his pieces tripping over each other making it more difficult to generate counterplay. It's the move 8...Nbd7 that's been almost refuted where ...Nfd7 is just a concession securing white an advantage.

Avatar of ozzie_c_cobblepot

Interesting - thanks.

Avatar of Niven42
RobKing wrote:

I'm very confused on how people rated 1500 can deem a very popular and sound opening unreliable...

... When I see a title next to your name then I may take your word for it...but still play it because until you are at a master level none of these debates matter.


 While I agree with your opinion regarding the original post, I don't agree that people below master level are incapable of contributing something useful to the study of Chess.  Just because we suck at the game doesn't mean we aren't capable of critical thought.

Avatar of Elubas

That taimanov analysis is just some of my understanding of the benoni robking. That rudeness was unnecessary and wrong.

Avatar of ozzie_c_cobblepot

OK RobKing, what if I am the one to quote Kasparov who said the Benoni has been refuted.

A title doesn't really change the message, just the delivery person.

Avatar of Elubas

Robking is saying that because of my rating (my uscf hasn't fleshed out yet; and my chess.com rating is over 2100 I know it's inflated but still) I am quoting kasparov even though I "know nothing about the benoni"(wrong). But anyways Kasparov saying anything should be taken seriously!

Avatar of Maroon_25

RobKing, do I need to know aerospace engineering (etc.) in order to make the claim that it is definitely possible to put a man on the moon?  I don't know much about HOW it works (physics explanation) or WHY it works, but I'm pretty confident we (USA) did it in 1969.

Avatar of ozzie_c_cobblepot

jkpastorius, I thought everybody knew you weren't supposed to use logic on the internets

Avatar of RobKing
ozzie_c_cobblepot wrote:

OK RobKing, what if I am the one to quote Kasparov who said the Benoni has been refuted.

A title doesn't really change the message, just the delivery person.


 Quote him however you'd like, but I'd ask you the same question: Why is it bad? Could you demonstrate why it is bad?

I know about the Taiminov line after Bb5+ but where you say Nbd7 is "refuted"...I'm not sure about that....

1 d4 nf6 2 c4 c5 3 d5 e6 4 Nc3 exd5 5 cxd5 d6 6 e4 g6 7 f4 Bg7 8 Bb5+ Nbd7 9 e5 dxe5 10 fxe5 Nh5  and now what?

11. g4 is terrible because although it seems to trap the Knight, White has trouble against 11. ... Qh4+

11. Nf3 is not good because 11. ... 0-0 gets black out of everything and all his pieces are active. If 12. g4 then 12. ... Nxe5 and black sacrifices the Knight on h5 for a very strong attack after moves like Bg4 and Re8.

The main move to try is 11. e6 and after 11. ...Qh4+ 12. g3 Nxg3 13. Nf3 Bxc3+ 14. bxc3 Qe4+ 15. Kf2 Nxh1+ 16. Qxh1

or 13. hxg3 Qxh1 14. Be3 and this position is kind of unclear ... If black grabs the pawn on g3 then three connected passed pawns are very very strong and I think it is enough compensation for the position.

In my opinion these positions are not clear cut wins for white.

Even still, Black can opt to play 2. ...e6 and avoid these Taiminov lines if he likes.