What opening loses effectiveness with increased elo the fastest

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Avatar of Sean19976453

I was wondering so I dont pick an opening that becomes useless instantly

Avatar of ThrillerFan
Sean19976453 wrote:

I was wondering so I dont pick an opening that becomes useless instantly

I have always been adamantly against anyone arguing that an opening is good because their 1200 opponents fall for traps. Always start with something sound that would still be effective when you hit 2200.

That said, the following are the legitimate options:

White - 1.e4, 1.d4, 1.c4, or 1.Nf3

Black vs e4 - 1...e5 (with 2...Nc6 or 2...Nf6), Sicilian, French, and Caro-Kann

Black vs d4 - QGD, QGA, Slav, Semi-Slav, Nimzo-Indian/Queen's Indian, King's Indian, Grunfeld, Modern Benoni, Mexican, Dutch

Avatar of trw0311

Anything that leaves you materially or positionally worse if the opponent knows the refutation, like the c5 caro advance , there’s a way black is just objectively worse, old Benoni black is just objectively worse in some lines, most gambits, openings where the queen comes out early, etc

Avatar of ThrillerFan
trw0311 wrote:

Anything that leaves you materially or positionally worse if the opponent knows the refutation, like the c5 caro advance , there’s a way black is just objectively worse, old Benoni black is just objectively worse in some lines, most gambits, openings where the queen comes out early, etc

There are basically 4 effective gambits. The rest are crap.

Queen's Gambit - 1.d4 d5 2.c4 - not really a gambit, but technically, yes it is.

Tal Gambit - 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 Nf6 - This is why the modern treatment of the Grand Prix attack involves 2.Nc3 first. The Toilet Variation (3.Nc3) is no better. White still struggles.

Marshall Gambit - 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bg5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 O-O 8.c3 d5 - VERY complicated and a lot of Anti-Marshalls to deal with - not recommended below 2000.

Marshall Gambit - 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4 - Yes, Marshall had two different gambits bare his name.

That's basically it. Two for White and Two for Black. The rest are trash! Yes, that includes the King's Gambit, the Smith-Moron Gambit, the Stafford Gambit, etc.

One could argue the Scandinavian Gambit, 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.c4 c6, which is bad for White to accept, but White can get a significant advantage with 3.d4!, making 1...d5 dubious in the first place as it is also advantage White after 2...Qxd5 3.Nc3.

Avatar of trw0311
ThrillerFan wrote:
trw0311 wrote:

Anything that leaves you materially or positionally worse if the opponent knows the refutation, like the c5 caro advance , there’s a way black is just objectively worse, old Benoni black is just objectively worse in some lines, most gambits, openings where the queen comes out early, etc

There are basically 4 effective gambits. The rest are crap.

Queen's Gambit - 1.d4 d5 2.c4 - not really a gambit, but technically, yes it is.

Tal Gambit - 1.e4 c5 2.f4 d5 3.exd5 Nf6 - This is why the modern treatment of the Grand Prix attack involves 2.Nc3 first. The Toilet Variation (3.Nc3) is no better. White still struggles.

Marshall Gambit - 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bg5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 O-O 8.c3 d5 - VERY complicated and a lot of Anti-Marshalls to deal with - not recommended below 2000.

Marshall Gambit - 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 c6 4.e4 - Yes, Marshall had two different gambits bare his name.

That's basically it. Two for White and Two for Black. The rest are trash! Yes, that includes the King's Gambit, the Smith-Moron Gambit, the Stafford Gambit, etc.

One could argue the Scandinavian Gambit, 1.e4 d5 2.exd5 Nf6 3.c4 c6, which is bad for White to accept, but White can get a significant advantage with 3.d4!, making 1...d5 dubious in the first place as it is also advantage White after 2...Qxd5 3.Nc3.

Agreed, most gambits are fun and good for learning chess tactics, but eventually they hit a wall, being down a pawn can be impossible to come back from. I was running into trouble my last rated run on lichess against 2250-2350 because I was playing that c5 botvinnik carls caro kann, it cost me a lot of rating to the point I had to either learn the short system, which I’m not a fan of the positions you get, or get a Sicilian course which I did, now I have an accelerated dragon repetoire that works much much better. It took some effort but I really had to take a step back and patch that hole up. I’m about ready to hop back into it with the new repetoire, just need to tighten up my responses to the maroczy bind and rossolimo.

it gets impossible to level up when you have elements of your repetoire where game after game you’re essentially playing with pawn odds/space odds in certain lines. At a certain point everyone starts knowing the good lines for certain openings.

Avatar of RivertonKnight

ThrillerFan what is your preferred moves that refutes the Benko Gambit?

Avatar of ThrillerFan
RivertonKnight wrote:

ThrillerFan what is your preferred moves that refutes the Benko Gambit?

I have discontinued the Benko Gambit in 2005 because of miserable positions for Black if White does not fall for the traps. Based on White's preferred style of play, two lines are why I don't trust it (unless I am the one playing White) - both involve accepting the Gambit:

1) The King Walk Variation - the line where White advances the e-pawn and allows the trade on f1.

2) Fianchetto Variation - in this case, White needs to avoid advance of the e-pawn, even after Castling and Re1. Relinquishing control of d3 is just what Black wants in the Fianchetto variation.

Declining the Gambit- 4.Nf3, 5.Nc3, 5.e3, 5.f3, 5.b6, are a non-issue for Black. But the two primary lines of accepting are bad enough for Black that you just about never see the Benko Gambit in Correspondence Chess. Note, chess.com Daily is NOT true correspondence chess.

I should also clarify. You used the word "refutes". Not all openings are Sound or Refuted. There is gray area in between, typically deemed "Dubious".

Sound openings give white at best a minimal advantage. Never anything higher than +/=, and most often =.

Refuted openings give Black or White an outright lost position, either +- or -+.

There is the gray area of openings that are dubious. These are going to be those that, with best play, will lead to positions with a clear advantage for one side. Namely, +/- or -/+. This is where the Benko Gambit belongs, along with other unsound (unsound does not equal refuted) gambits like the Elephant Gambit, Latvian Gambit, Kings Gambit, Icelandic Gambit, etc.

So using the word "refutes" is inappropriate. The King Walk Variation and the Fianchetto Variation, when played correctly, give White a clear advantage, not a winning advantage.

Avatar of chessblackbelt

lol lets say scholars mate

Avatar of chessblackbelt

it kinda works below 500 , but once u get higher its trash