What to play against the Dutch

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TheOldReb

BB, which dutch do you like as black ? The Dutch requires a certain type of player , I think , to do well with it and I don't think I am that type ... other openings (french for example ) also require a certain type of player and I do well with the french . 

BirdsDaWord

I prefer the Stonewall, but I play various styles.  If I were to name them down based on my favor:

Stonewall

Bb4 + Bb7 (based on early d4-c4-Nc3 setups)

Leningrad (mainly ...c6, but my heart leans more towards ...Nc6 lines)

...d6-e5 approach, a la Classical but with f5-e5 pawn center

Classical

Antoshin

That pretty much sums it up, I LOVE the Stonewall.  That is also why I am working to make a 1...e6 universal system that I love.

BirdsDaWord

Reb, I mean, Mosalenko plays both the French and the Stonewall.  I am still working on learning the French, occasionally I am still falling prey to traps in the first 20 moves, but overall, it is getting better. 

xman720

Why did black resign?

X_PLAYER_J_X
xman720 wrote:

Why did black resign?

If you are talking about Morphysrevenges game.

Than black didn't resign.

White resigned which made black the winner.

White hung the bishop on c4. The black queen can take it and be up a piece.

It was a simple mistake.


X_PLAYER_J_X
BirdBrain wrote:

Reb, I mean, Mosalenko plays both the French and the Stonewall.  I am still working on learning the French, occasionally I am still falling prey to traps in the first 20 moves, but overall, it is getting better. 

I was going to share with you a move order trick which I saw some Dutch Title players do on chess.com.

However, They mainly only played the Leningrad Dutch and Modern Defense.

The Stone Wall is not really possible with that move order.

They opened with 1...g6

After 1.d4 g6  2.c4 Bg7 3.Nc3

They proceeded with 3...f5

In some games they played 2...f5 as well.

I think the idea was to make sure white played c4 and avoid some Anti-Dutch lines.

However, if your opponent plays 2.e4 you would have to be able to play a Modern Defense etc.

BirdsDaWord

X_Player, I understood that some players only venture the Leningrad via 1...d6.  And yes, I think if you are gonna play ...g6 on the first move, it should be played as a complex.  This is also why I am now beginning to play more 1...e6 on purpose, so I can also practice French lines.

BirdsDaWord

Morphy, there is a problem with that...what if you are a Stonewall player by nature?  I think if that is the case, you have to be willing to consider other lines, such as the Classical as well.  

The thing with a guy like me is that I don't commit to any of the Dutch systems...I play them all gladly.  

BirdsDaWord

I think flexibility is the key, and being willing to study ideas that are unique to you.  PLUS - that "Dreaded" h-pawn attack...maybe you should invest some core effort into studying it, if you like it that much.  There are good quality lines, and maybe it is worth it for you to enter those slugfests, since you are so in love with that concept.

As for the Stonewall and the dreaded queen bishop, maybe it is because it is psychologically bothering you due to its "passive" nature, but in the opening, it does help out in a support fashion, and if you get in ...e5 and ...f4, that puppy comes alive.  Heck, you can also take a good look at the ...b6 lines:

And of course, the more direct type routes - look into the ...e5 concept, freeing that bad boy up.



Mattsetzungsabsicht

1.e4 is a good weapon against the Dutch Tongue Out

BirdsDaWord

Yes it is!

X_PLAYER_J_X

It is rather funny.

I like playing the KID but I do not like playing the Dutch.

Maybe it is because I never played the Leningrad lol.

Some people have told me the Leningrad Dutch can be similar to the KID.

However, I have never tryed it.

I have always played the Stone Wall Dutch or Classical Dutch.

However, After playing the Stone Wall Dutch and Classical Dutch a few times.

I stopped playing the Dutch entirely because I felt like it wasn't for me.

BirdsDaWord

You should check out the Leningrad.  In some ways, you gain tempos because you don't have to prepare f7-f5 with some knight maneuver.

Pablouned

Raphael variation, a good weapon against dutch! I also write these lines: 

(In spanish). 

"Presentan especiales dificultades las variantes del tipo Ag5 o Cc3 y Ag5. 

 Leandro-Pepe. 
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 e6 5. Bd3 Be76. Nf3 O-O 7. O-O b6 8. Ne2 Ba6 9. Bxa6 Nxa610. Nf4 Qd6 11. Nd3 c5 12. c4 dxc4 13. Nde5cxd4 14. exd4 c3 15. bxc3 Ne4 16. Bxe7 Qxe7 17.Qe2 Nb8 18. c4 Nd7 19. Rac1 Rac8 20. Rfd1 Rfd821. Qb2 Ng5 22. Nxg5 Qxg5 23. Nf3 Qf6 24. Re1Rc7 25. Qa3 Nf8 26. Qe3 Rd6 27. h3 h6 28. Qf4Rcd7 29. c5 Rd5 30. c6 g5 31. Qb8 Rf7 32. c7 g433. c8=Q gxf3 34. Qg3+ Rg7 35. Qxf3 Rxd4 36.Rcd1 Rc4 37. Qxc4 1-0
Y aquí, en verdad encuentro inexplicable lo de Pepe de jugar b6 y Aa6, que pienso que Leandro pudo haber aprovechado mejor de lo que hizo. 

El Ac8 en las cerradas suele ser o relativamente malo en b7, o directamente malísimo en c8. Pero no por ello deja de cumplir funciones defensivas, como en este caso defender el peón retrasado. No tiene aparte, demasiado sentido descolocar el Cb8, ponerlo en a6 y apartarlo de funciones centrales y defensivas. De todas formas, el hecho de que se cambie el alfil bueno de las negras por el alfil malo de las blancas, hace que la posición negra sea objetivamente muy difícil. 
Pero si observamos esta secuencia de jugadas: 
1. d4 f5 2. Nc3 Nf6 3. Bg5 d5 4. e3 e6 5. Bd3 Be7 6. Nf3 O-O 7.O-O Nbd7 8. Ne2 Ne4 9. Bxe7 Qxe7 10. c4 c6 
Se ve que el juego negro es bastante mejor, de lo que fue el de Pepe contra Leandro. Pero aun así, sigo viendo muchas dificultades para las negras. (Suele pasar que cuando buscas algo para las negras, lo encuentras para las blancas y viceversa). En esta variante de Cc3 y Ag5 se encuentra prácticamente de todo y para las blancas." 

And white also could change with 4.Bxf6. So, Raphael variation is a very uncomfortable line for dutch's player. Not only because is objectively strong, but also because dutch's player, prefers playing main lines. I searched variations for black and i found strong lines for white! 

classof1970

1 e4

Wantobegm

You could see my video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oabUAW0i5ko

SamClam

I like the London-way of playing against the dutch (see amilton542 diagram) . Castling queenside and a black-pawn on g6 to attack ( h4,g4,g5 ) is irresistable to a hacker.

When I was first confronted with the Dutch , I went for another way of play : 1.d4 f5 2.Bg5 which is the Trompovski way of handling.

Wantobegm

@SamClam you can also play Nc3

SamClam

@Wantobgm : at what move ?

I prefer to play Nbd2 and c3 after I played my bishop to f4 (London) or g5 (tromp).

I guess it's a matter of taste.

Wantobegm

@SamClam watch my video it is good https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oabUAW0i5ko good variation I even defeated a 1800 player with it