Where(How?) Exactly did the Caro-Kann Get its Reputation for Solidity?

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Radical_Drift

Hello,

Everywhere, I find the Caro-Kann being referred to as one of the most solid defenses against 1.e4, but I'm not entirely sure of how this reputation came about. I've played it for a moment and can certainly verify its solidity, but is that the only reason why I hear all the time about it being a drawing weapon? Looking at stats in various databases, it doesn't seem to draw much more than other defenses. 

hpmobil

This comes from the beginnings of modern chess till gm players started treating the advance variation with 4.Nf3 or 3... c5. These are sharpet lines.

chessterd5

The solidity of the Caro-Kann is based on the move of the c-pawn by black to better develop the Queen's bishop in comparison to the French defence.

The sicillian also answers this question but in a much more aggressive way.

Ziryab

There have been a few important matches between top players where one player failed to win as White because the other played the Caro-Kann.

Radical_Drift

I suppose the world champions who used it relatively often were known for their solidity:

Capablanca (in a time when almost no one played it, he used it)

Botvinnik (world championship matches)

Petrosian (He was especially solid)

Karpov (Perhaps the most frequent user of the Caro-Kann)

Anand (He used to be more of an attacker/aggressive player, but he's also very solid, in the Capablanca mold.)

Radical_Drift
Fiveofswords wrote:

its reputation comes from the peanut gallery who tend to understand little

I'm not sure this is true. It's certainly true that some people just parrot what other people say, but from my own experience, the Caro-Kann and Berlin deserve to be in the same breath from the standpoint of solidity.

Radical_Drift
Fiveofswords wrote:
chessman1504 wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:

its reputation comes from the peanut gallery who tend to understand little

I'm not sure this is true. It's certainly true that some people just parrot what other people say, but from my own experience, the Caro-Kann and Berlin deserve to be in the same breath from the standpoint of solidity.

caro kann and berlin are both good in their own way...not sure i would put them in the same category. they have quite a different feel.

Absolutely! Of course, they're quite different, but they're similar in their tendency to lead to positions with few exploitable weaknesses. Some of the games I've enjoyed most have come from Berlin endgames and Caro-Kanns. These are two examples:

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-analysis/endgames-are-fun

http://www.chess.com/forum/view/game-analysis/a-berlin-endgame

Radical_Drift
Fiveofswords wrote:

there actually are aggressive double edged lines of the caro kan. hard to say this about the berlin. and black actually does get weakness in both...with the berlin its like the weakness isnt enough to matter...in the caro kan its offset by complimentary weakness for white

Yeah, some lines like Bronstein-Larsen, some g7-g5 ideas in the Advance, the Tartakower, Korchnoi variations are kind of sharp, but it seems what's played more frequently are the main line classical and Karpov variations; no surprise these are the ones I'm more familiar with! :) What specifically do you mean by complimentary weakness for White? I'm not sure of what you mean by weakness in the Caro-kann, since there are a number of variations. Usually, in contrast to this, when people say Berlin, they mean the endgame.

Radical_Drift
Fiveofswords wrote:

depends on the line. in some lines white advances an h pawn for initiative but that pawn can become weak in the endgame. in the panov which i play white has a lasting initiative but black has slightly better structure. stuff like that

Well,I am aware of the h-pawn in the main line, but what about Black's weaknesses? Your post is suggestive of Black having weaknesses for which White's weaknesses balance the position.

Radical_Drift
Fiveofswords wrote:

black has mobility issues in that line...thats the weakness. it will end up forcing black to make some concession somewhere but exactly what isnt possible to say...depends on how both players treat the position

I see, so that's what you mean. Black does have space issues, though I think this shouldn't be such a problem, at least in my experience. 

Radical_Drift
Fiveofswords wrote:
chessman1504 wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:

black has mobility issues in that line...thats the weakness. it will end up forcing black to make some concession somewhere but exactly what isnt possible to say...depends on how both players treat the position

I see, so that's what you mean. Black does have space issues, though I think this shouldn't be such a problem, at least in my experience. 

yeah..well..the h pawn isnt much of a problem either lol.

Exactly, the position is relatively balanced.

Ziryab

"Look, having nuclear—my uncle was a great professor and scientist and engineer, Dr. John Trump at MIT; good genes, very good genes, okay, very smart, the Wharton School of Finance, very good, very smart—you know, if you’re a conservative Republican, if I were a liberal, if, like, okay, if I ran as a liberal Democrat, they would say I'm one of the smartest people anywhere in the world—it’s true!—but when you're a conservative Republican they try—oh, do they do a number—that’s why I always start off: Went to Wharton, was a good student, went there, went there, did this, built a fortune—you know I have to give my like credentials all the time, because we’re a little disadvantaged—but you look at the nuclear deal, the thing that really bothers me—it would have been so easy, and it’s not as important as these lives are (nuclear is powerful; my uncle explained that to me many, many years ago, the power and that was 35 years ago; he would explain the power of what's going to happen and he was right—who would have thought?), but when you look at what's going on with the four prisoners—now it used to be three, now it’s four—but when it was three and even now, I would have said it's all in the messenger; fellas, and it is fellas because, you know, they don't, they haven’t figured that the women are smarter right now than the men, so, you know, it’s gonna take them about another 150 years—but the Persians are great negotiators, the Iranians are great negotiators, so, and they, they just killed, they just killed us."

X_PLAYER_J_X

From my understanding the Caro kann gets his solid nature based on its pawn structure.

Since quiet often its pawn structure has no weaknesses.

Other line which is known for its solid nature is lines such as the Slav

Which can share in similar pawn structures.

Joker-Jamal

I always play Kings Pawn

Radical_Drift

On a relatively unrelated note, I feel kind of like Yoda. 

TheOldReb

Petrosian and Botvinnik both get so much credit for playing the caro kann and yet they both played the french more . It seems to me that the carokann was their second or third choice against 1 e4 ... 

Ziryab
chessmicky wrote:

Ziryab. were you having a brain aneurysm while typing post #27

There are quote marks around that passage because it is from a speech by an American business tycoon--really rich guy. He seems to be as strong in logic as some of the "geniuses" who post here.

Ziryab
Fiveofswords wrote:
Ziryab wrote:
chessmicky wrote:

Ziryab. were you having a brain aneurysm while typing post #27

There are quote marks around that passage because it is from a speech by an American business tycoon--really rich guy. He seems to be as strong in logic as some of the "geniuses" who post here.

the funny thing about this post is that while the guy seemed to have issues with english and staying on topic (i suspect he was probably on some drug at rhe time...maybe cocaine) there wasnt any real issue with his logic. funny that one of our genius posers (posters i mean...sorry) would have a hard time recognizing that. a logical error would be more like an argument constructed this way: i dont like you therefore you are wrong. it does not follow.

If you keep stalking me, I'll call the police.

TheOldReb
GreedyPawnEater wrote:
Reb wrote:

Petrosian and Botvinnik both get so much credit for playing the caro kann and yet they both played the french more . It seems to me that the carokann was their second or third choice against 1 e4 ... 

They played the French against weak players. Botvinnik tried the dull French once against Tal, got crushed and never tried it again. He switched to Caro-Kann and destroyed Tal and everybody else with it to keep the title for two decades.

You shouldnt post if you cant get your facts straight .  Tal , Geller , Fine, Keres, Smyslov are just a few of the " weak " players Botvinnik played the french against . The more you post your nonsense the more I believe you are just a troll . 

Joker-Jamal

I dont think Caro-Kann is solid!