Which is better: e4 or d4?
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BostonBuffets
Oct 12, 2023
0
#61
For a positional player like me, I will say d4, opening up the dark-squared bishop and queen. It will usually lead to more positional games. For an attacking player, e4, perhaps even f4, is suitable as it will lead to sharp, attacking games. My biggest weakness is aggressive and attacking players, and that is why I seldom play e4. Usually if I play e4, it means I want to try to turn it around and be an attacking player. This is just my opinion. The engine thinks differently.
Oct 12, 2023
0
#62
DrSpudnik wrote:
About any opening is playable.
One thing we can sorta agree on
Oct 12, 2023
0
#65
sassygirltebritish wrote:
DrSpudnik wrote:
About any opening is playable.
One thing we can sorta agree on
Yeah, white can't sink himself on move one... although he can play the Grob and try 
Oct 12, 2023
0
#66
this is a long thread
What would you higher rated players recommend for the improver 1500 player e4 or d4? what about opening with c4 or Nf3
People say do not study openings too much but if you get inferior positions after initial phase then game is lost so some opening knowledge is needed at this level
Thank you
Oct 12, 2023
0
#67
wninochess wrote:
this is a long thread
What would you higher rated players recommend for the improver 1500 player e4 or d4? what about opening with c4 or Nf3
People say do not study openings too much but if you get inferior positions after initial phase then game is lost so some opening knowledge is needed at this level
Thank you
Some opening knowledge is needed to not just sink in the first few moves. But that's entirely up to the player. Openings should be picked to allow you to get to a middlegame you are comfortable in. None of these first moves are "better" than the others.
Oct 12, 2023
0
#68
e4 for beginners, but I think that c4 and Nf3 are the best first moves.
1. e4 is best as a “sink-or-swim” method to quickly learn tactics as Black has many strong counterattacking defenses.
1. d4 is best as a next stepping stone to learn simple positional play as, similar to e4, most of Black’s choices lean positional and less theoretical.
1. Nf3 is best if you like e4 play and d4 play but not Open Game or Closed Game and are willing to learn the theory of the transpositions.
1. c4 is best overall, and if you like playing Black openings more than White, that’s only more reasoning to play this.
1. g3 is best for players who want simple positional chess to just outplay their opponent in the middlegame and endgame.
D4 is the most solid 🪨 while e4 is the crazy dude. Everything else except b4 is an old man
Oct 13, 2023
0
#71
How much terrible advice, folk wisdom and opinion dressed up as fact is in this thread so far?
Oct 13, 2023
0
#72
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
...
1. g3 is best for players who want simple positional chess to just outplay their opponent in the middlegame and endgame.
I used to rank 1. g3 as part of the Pantheon of top moves, but I have since downgraded it a little in my thinking and now think it's at a level below the top four but above everything else.
The reason? (1) Unlike any of the top four it doesn't do anything to immediately control and/or occupy the center and (2) It's, ironically, a little too committal. It telegraphs you will 100% fianchetto your KB and probably 90% castle kingside.
Lent_Barsen wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
...
1. g3 is best for players who want simple positional chess to just outplay their opponent in the middlegame and endgame.
I used to rank 1. g3 as part of the Pantheon of top moves, but I have since downgraded it a little in my thinking and now think it's at a level below the top four but above everything else.
The reason? (1) Unlike any of the top four it doesn't do anything to immediately control and/or occupy the center and (2) It's, ironically, a little too committal. It telegraphs you will 100% fianchetto your KB and probably 90% castle kingside.
My top 5 is:
English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5.
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.
I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.
Oct 13, 2023
0
#74
My top 5 is:
English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5.
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.
I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.
I always worry about king safety, so letting the opponent know from move one on what side I'll be castling and what type of pawn formation I'll have in front of my king is concerning to me. I'd have nightmares about them just rapidly developing their q-side with d5, Nc6, Bf5 (or g4), Qd7 (or d6), O-O-O and then throwing their h-pawn at me.
Of course, I'm sure it's not so easy in practice, but 1. g3 violates one of my principles of practical play about being unnecessarily transparent where your king is going.
As far as 1. e4 being a weak pawn, it's a trade-off: space + center control/occupation versus a potential vulnerability. My opinion is that, ideally, white would like to establish a two pawn center with e4 and d4, and that since it's easier to follow up with d4 after having played 1. e4 than vice versa, then 1. e4 is probably the objectively best first move. But I myself prefer 1. Nf3 and think the strength difference between 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. Nf3, and 1. c4 is fairly negligible.
Which brings me back to what I perceive as another downside to 1. g3 and that is that black can occupy the center after 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 and the database has that scoring pretty well for black.
Lent_Barsen wrote:
My top 5 is:
English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5.
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.
I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.
I always worry about king safety, so letting the opponent know from move one on what side I'll be castling and what type of pawn formation I'll have in front of my king is concerning to me. I'd have nightmares about them just rapidly developing their q-side with d5, Nc6, Bf5 (or g4), Qd7 (or d6), O-O-O and then throwing their h-pawn at me.
Of course, I'm sure it's not so easy in practice, but 1. g3 violates one of my principles of practical play about being unnecessarily transparent where your king is going.
As far as 1. e4 being a weak pawn, it's a trade-off: space + center control/occupation versus a potential vulnerability. My opinion is that, ideally, white would like to establish a two pawn center with e4 and d4, and that since it's easier to follow up with d4 after having played 1. e4 than vice versa, then 1. e4 is probably the objectively best first move. But I myself prefer 1. Nf3 and think the strength difference between 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. Nf3, and 1. c4 is fairly negligible.
Which brings me back to what I perceive as another downside to 1. g3 and that is that black can occupy the center after 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 and the database has that scoring pretty well for black.
Similar to the KID, the KIA setup can’t just be ignored in favor of throwing everything at the kingside, but White can also just decide not to castle kingside depending on Black’s setup. The nice thing about not overextending a pawn center immediately is that you have time in which you can wait and then decide which way to castle.
I don’t think e4 is better than d4 at establishing a 2-pawn center, as in both, Black’s strongest responses will completely disallow it, but in e4, Black has then fully equalized or has full compensation with counterattacking chances, whereas in d4, White still holds a very slight advantage essentially no matter what Black does.
And sure, but White can also just choose to play the KIA which is much better than than the Reverse Modern.
Oct 14, 2023
0
#76
Lent_Barsen wrote:
My top 5 is:
English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5.
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.
I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.
I always worry about king safety, so letting the opponent know from move one on what side I'll be castling and what type of pawn formation I'll have in front of my king is concerning to me. I'd have nightmares about them just rapidly developing their q-side with d5, Nc6, Bf5 (or g4), Qd7 (or d6), O-O-O and then throwing their h-pawn at me.
Of course, I'm sure it's not so easy in practice, but 1. g3 violates one of my principles of practical play about being unnecessarily transparent where your king is going.
As far as 1. e4 being a weak pawn, it's a trade-off: space + center control/occupation versus a potential vulnerability. My opinion is that, ideally, white would like to establish a two pawn center with e4 and d4, and that since it's easier to follow up with d4 after having played 1. e4 than vice versa, then 1. e4 is probably the objectively best first move. But I myself prefer 1. Nf3 and think the strength difference between 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. Nf3, and 1. c4 is fairly negligible.
Which brings me back to what I perceive as another downside to 1. g3 and that is that black can occupy the center after 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 and the database has that scoring pretty well for black.
no not nessarly since black can play e5 and have a nicer position but if you play f4 nf3 first you can get a hungariamn opening
Oct 14, 2023
0
#77
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
Lent_Barsen wrote:
My top 5 is:
English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5.
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.
I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.
I always worry about king safety, so letting the opponent know from move one on what side I'll be castling and what type of pawn formation I'll have in front of my king is concerning to me. I'd have nightmares about them just rapidly developing their q-side with d5, Nc6, Bf5 (or g4), Qd7 (or d6), O-O-O and then throwing their h-pawn at me.
Of course, I'm sure it's not so easy in practice, but 1. g3 violates one of my principles of practical play about being unnecessarily transparent where your king is going.
As far as 1. e4 being a weak pawn, it's a trade-off: space + center control/occupation versus a potential vulnerability. My opinion is that, ideally, white would like to establish a two pawn center with e4 and d4, and that since it's easier to follow up with d4 after having played 1. e4 than vice versa, then 1. e4 is probably the objectively best first move. But I myself prefer 1. Nf3 and think the strength difference between 1. e4, 1. d4, 1. Nf3, and 1. c4 is fairly negligible.
Which brings me back to what I perceive as another downside to 1. g3 and that is that black can occupy the center after 1. g3 d5 2. Bg2 e5 and the database has that scoring pretty well for black.
Similar to the KID, the KIA setup can’t just be ignored in favor of throwing everything at the kingside, but White can also just decide not to castle kingside depending on Black’s setup. The nice thing about not overextending a pawn center immediately is that you have time in which you can wait and then decide which way to castle.
I don’t think e4 is better than d4 at establishing a 2-pawn center, as in both, Black’s strongest responses will completely disallow it, but in e4, Black has then fully equalized or has full compensation with counterattacking chances, whereas in d4, White still holds a very slight advantage essentially no matter what Black does.
And sure, but White can also just choose to play the KIA which is much better than than the Reverse Modern.
nah e4 has always been a good weapon against strong opposition
Dec 29, 2024
0
#79
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
Lent_Barsen wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
...
1. g3 is best for players who want simple positional chess to just outplay their opponent in the middlegame and endgame.
I used to rank 1. g3 as part of the Pantheon of top moves, but I have since downgraded it a little in my thinking and now think it's at a level below the top four but above everything else.
The reason? (1) Unlike any of the top four it doesn't do anything to immediately control and/or occupy the center and (2) It's, ironically, a little too committal. It telegraphs you will 100% fianchetto your KB and probably 90% castle kingside.
My top 5 is:
English 1, Reti 2, QP 3, Hungarian 4, and KP 5.
The English is most effective in stopping a d5 push, and d4 and Reti are most effective in stopping an e5 push, while Hungarian is forced to sidestep the central pawn pushes rather than stop them directly (1. g3 e5 2. c4, 1. g3 d5 2. Nf3) which is objectively fine but restricts White’s options while allowing Black options unnecessarily. That being said, the objective strength of the Hungarian family of openings is still stronger than that of the e4 family of openings.
I think the “committal” aspect of your comment is interesting, as the knowledge of where White’s placing two of his pieces isn’t really anything too special, especially when compared to playing e4, a weak pawn to put in the center all things considered.
The English doesn't stop d5. It can be played on move 1. Or built up with 1. e6 (or c6), and then 2. d5.
