Why exactly does the London get so much hate?

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SamuelAjedrez95
Chuck639 wrote:

Yeah those 1800 beginners, you tell them!

Lol, I didn't look at the rating. Qb3 still definitely works though. And Qb6 against the London. I think we all know this stuff:

Which works out exceptionally well for black. I know there are better ways of playing for white but they still often run into this trouble with the weakened queenside. It's the closest thing to a London refutation.

Ethan_Brollier
Chuck639 wrote:

Is this a Reversed London?

I literally just finished the game…

https://www.chess.com/game/live/73155536463

No, Reversed London is a structure like this.

dpnorman

This is all true except at a reasonably high level, say 2500+ OTB, not many people are going 5. Nf3 in the line shown in post #47. I think everyone will play Nd2. Black's fine, but also white's fine, it's a chess position, no refutation of anything. There are many possible moves.

Ethan_Brollier
SamuelAjedrez95 wrote:
Chuck639 wrote:

Yeah those 1800 beginners, you tell them!

Lol, I didn't look at the rating. Qb3 still definitely works though. And Qb6 against the London. I think we all know this stuff:

Which works out exceptionally well for black. I know there are better ways of playing for white but they still often run into this trouble with the weakened queenside. It's the closest thing to a London refutation.

Yeah, c5 and Qb6 in a London essentially equalizes immediately, and if White plays passively or doesn't react well to the threat, Black is often better or much better. I did a lot of analysis for that one thread I mentioned earlier, and there are only one or two lines in which White conserves their advantage. I don't think the London is a complete repertoire unless White also knows the intricacies of the Jobava London as well.

Ethan_Brollier
dpnorman wrote:

This is all true except at a reasonably high level, say 2500+ OTB, not many people are going 5. Nf3 in the line shown in post #47. I think everyone will play Nd2. Black's fine, but also white's fine, it's a chess position, no refutation of anything. There are many possible moves.

I might just be playing the London System less accurately than is possible, but my usual move order is 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Bf4, the old London move order. I prefer the move order because it gives me more time to react to what Black does. If they play 1... d5 2... c5 I can transpose into a Bishop Attack Pseudotarrasch or Two Knights Tarrasch, if they play Spielmann-Indian I can transpose to the Declined Benko, if they play g6 I can transpose to a KID, but if they play d5 Nf6 I can just play a normal London and my preferred line against Qb6 involves an early Nf3, so I'm okay with blocking the d1-h5 diagonal that early in the game.
What do you think of the Old London move order these days?

wackolakkochecko

i think london is good for under 1000

nighteyes1234

I played vs it otb once. I got a smug punk too...but over the game, I saw a different side of him.

Ultimately I was impressed...I chased his king all over..and he put his best foot forward.

In blitz, yeah, its all pathetic. But anytime you are moving up quickly the ratings ladder OTB, who cares? . He was 17 or some such...and 2050 USCF when I played. And 6 months later he was 2150, playing the London vs IMs.

 

wackolakkochecko

also btw how do you post analysis board thing?

DixieLandTN
wackolakkochecko wrote:

also btw how do you post analysis board thing?


https://support.chess.com/article/316-how-do-i-put-a-game-or-puzzle-in-a-forum-post

 

DixieLandTN
DixieLandTN wrote:
wackolakkochecko wrote:

also btw how do you post analysis board thing?


https://support.chess.com/article/316-how-do-i-put-a-game-or-puzzle-in-a-forum-post

 

If you have the PGN of the game you can enter it into an analysis board.  Right click on the moves and add comments right there in the PGN.  Then you can copy all that and share it with your comments added as well.  That is preferred by most players.  Play around with it, its not that hard to figure out.

wackolakkochecko
ty

 

 

 

DixieLandTN

Unless you are a London player then it might be difficult to imagine. grin

newbie4711
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
Chuck639 wrote:

Is this a Reversed London?

I literally just finished the game…

https://www.chess.com/game/live/73155536463

No, Reversed London is a structure like this.

4. e3 / 5. c4 is unclear. I'd prefer 4. c4

dpnorman
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
dpnorman wrote:

This is all true except at a reasonably high level, say 2500+ OTB, not many people are going 5. Nf3 in the line shown in post #47. I think everyone will play Nd2. Black's fine, but also white's fine, it's a chess position, no refutation of anything. There are many possible moves.

I might just be playing the London System less accurately than is possible, but my usual move order is 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Bf4, the old London move order. I prefer the move order because it gives me more time to react to what Black does. If they play 1... d5 2... c5 I can transpose into a Bishop Attack Pseudotarrasch or Two Knights Tarrasch, if they play Spielmann-Indian I can transpose to the Declined Benko, if they play g6 I can transpose to a KID, but if they play d5 Nf6 I can just play a normal London and my preferred line against Qb6 involves an early Nf3, so I'm okay with blocking the d1-h5 diagonal that early in the game.
What do you think of the Old London move order these days?

Definitely playable if you do something like 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Bf4 c5 4. e3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Qb6 6. dxc5

Chessflyfisher

In my Chess club, we have forbidden the London System, the King's Indian Attack, and quite a few unsound gambits. There may be a legal challenge to this.

Chuck639
Chessflyfisher wrote:

In my Chess club, we have forbidden the London System, the King's Indian Attack, and quite a few unsound gambits. There may be a legal challenge to this.

This thread has been more about educating London players ironically…

ssctk
ZaiFaLi wrote:

The London System is a good opening strategy for beginners around 200-1200. Further advanced and you'll realize that Black normally knows how to defend against it. 

 

Makes one feel sorry for Gata Kamsky, who apparently must stuck in that rating range.

Ethan_Brollier
dpnorman wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
dpnorman wrote:

This is all true except at a reasonably high level, say 2500+ OTB, not many people are going 5. Nf3 in the line shown in post #47. I think everyone will play Nd2. Black's fine, but also white's fine, it's a chess position, no refutation of anything. There are many possible moves.

I might just be playing the London System less accurately than is possible, but my usual move order is 1. d4 Nf6 2. Nf3 d5 3. Bf4, the old London move order. I prefer the move order because it gives me more time to react to what Black does. If they play 1... d5 2... c5 I can transpose into a Bishop Attack Pseudotarrasch or Two Knights Tarrasch, if they play Spielmann-Indian I can transpose to the Declined Benko, if they play g6 I can transpose to a KID, but if they play d5 Nf6 I can just play a normal London and my preferred line against Qb6 involves an early Nf3, so I'm okay with blocking the d1-h5 diagonal that early in the game.
What do you think of the Old London move order these days?

Definitely playable if you do something like 1. d4 d5 2. Nf3 Nf6 3. Bf4 c5 4. e3 Nc6 5. Nbd2 Qb6 6. dxc5

That’s actually my exact line, and I believe I’ve actually improved on theory deeper in this line.
The traditional line follows 6... Qxb2 7. Rb1 Qc3 8. Bb5 e6 9. 0-0 Be7 10. Ne5 Qxc5 11. c4 0-0 and Black has equalized and might be better, but my analysis shows that 10. Ne5 is a less accurate move than 10. e4, and after 10. e4 0-0 11. e5 Nd7 12. Nb3 Qb4 13. Nfd4 Nxd4 14. Nxd4 Qxc5 15. Re1 a6 16. Bd3 g6 17. Nb3 White retains a small advantage. Realizing that's a long line so I'll put a board here.

Ethan_Brollier
newbie4711 wrote:
Ethan_Brollier wrote:
Chuck639 wrote:

Is this a Reversed London?

I literally just finished the game…

https://www.chess.com/game/live/73155536463

No, Reversed London is a structure like this.

4. e3 / 5. c4 is unclear. I'd prefer 4. c4

That’s fair. I hadn’t analyzed it deeply, I was just attempting to show the Symmetrical London structure, but 4.c4 looks much stronger now that I see it

dpnorman

10. e4 is a good move, but there are many games there; it's not quite an innovation. I have a friend who reached this OTB not long ago. I agree white has good compensation, not sure what that means objectively but I might prefer playing white even if black may be fine