why is ruy lopez considered the strongest

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zborg

It is (perhaps) more revealing that @5BadWords consistently plays Standard Chess against players averaging 500 points lower than himself.

That, and his Avatar's scowl leaves something to be desired.  Just saying.

ThrillerFan
Rumo75 wrote:

FiveofSwords wrote: "and why would they want to get weaker players out of book...what would they have to fear being the better player with the best opening. again your inferior intellect exposes itselt [...]"

Getting a weaker player out of book means forcing him to find his own moves instead of letting him play preparation/theory. Your posting demonstrates nothing but ignorance, GMs do that all the time. This is common knowledge of anyone who frequently sees the inside of a tournament hall. In my last 4 games against GMs, two went for obscure openings and one improvised rare move in a well-known position from the Slav.

I also think where FoS is clueless is that he thinks he so cool and knows all about chess because he can play a few "main lines" deeply, but his "intellect" fails on him when you go out of book, so he whines.

Next, he'll go around saying how people like Reb and I recommend to people to learn the main lines, saying we have no clue what we are talking about.

Here's the problem with most chess players below 2000.  They fall under one of 3 categories:

A) They try to cut short their studying by playing nothing but offbeat lines that give them equality at best as White and inferior positions as Black.  For example, they will learn just the c3-Sicilian, cutting out all the lines in the Open Sicilian, and think this will get them beyond beating the pee-wees.  It won't.

B) They try to be all flashy and claim they know everything because they know 25 moves of 6.Bg5 Najdorf theory, probably knowing it deeper than anybody rated 2400 or below.  The problem is, they know it from route memory, and don't understand jack when White deviates.  Then they whine and complain about how their opponents could play such a bad move on move such-and-such when they are doing nothing but blowing out air.  Just because one move on White's 17th move is best doesn't mean White can't still have a smaller edge with something else.  Maybe their move is +0.23 instead of +0.41.

C) They memorize a few main lines, and they quickly go thru sidelines, and they maybe understand a couple of basics, but they still have no clue what is going on beyond move 10.  Ok, I got to the end of my book knowledge, now what?

 

Here's the key.  First you should learn the main lines of whatever you play.  That means if you play 1.e4, Ruy Lopez, Open Sicilian, one of the main lines of the French (3.Nc3, 3.Nd2?!, 3.e5), one of the main lines of the Caro-Kann, etc.

However, you don't stop here.  Next you learn the various sidelines for multiple reasons.  One is you might decide one day to play the Sicilian as Black and need to know the anti-Sicilians.  Another is you are facing a booked up Dragon player that is clueless on what to do against the c3-Sicilian.  This doesn't mean the c3-Sicilian is anywhere near as strong as the Open Sicilian - the Open Sicilian is lightyears stronger than the c3-Sicilian as the c3-Sicilian gains nothing but equality against best play - but against a 1700 peewee, the c3-Sicilian played by a 2400 would cream him faster than the Yugoslav Attack would.  That same said 2400 player wouldn't be caught dead playing the c3-Sicilian against someone like Kramnik unless he either has no goals at getting better, or possibly has played Kramnik numerous times and is looking for a change of pace opening.

And quite frankly, sometimes it just isn't going to work because the lower rated player has either played what you are playing as well and knows it even deeper than the master does, as was the case with me in my win against a 2447 player when I was rated 1999 in August 2010 and he tried to nail me with 1.b3 and we went main line all the way until he played the inferior 11.Nd3?! instead of 11.Nxc6 and I won in 60 moves.  Still to this day the highest rated player I've beaten.

ThrillerFan
Thomas9400 wrote:

I personally hate the roy lupez becuse when ever i use it when u back your bishop off he is able to push 2 of his pawns. of course i suck at chess soooo up to you

The problem is, after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 a6 4.Ba4 Nf6 5.O-O Be7 6.Re1 b5 7.Bb3 d6 8.c3 O-O 9.h3, which is the main line of the Ruy Lopez, sure Black has gotten in 2 pawn pushes on the Queenside, but keep in mind, they can never go back!  Black constantly has to watch out for ideas like a4 by White.  If White built up on b5, and Black advances, White might play something like a5 and the b4-pawn is very weak.  On the other hand, if Black takes on a4, White has a Rook on an open file eyeing a very weak isolated pawn on a6.  Lastly, if Black does nothing, the b-pawn will drop after axb5 axb5 and some form of recapture by White.  Again, often times a4 is prepared for via attacking b5 with pieces before uncorking the a-pawn push to a4.

So don't look at a6 and b5 as 2 free moves for Black, look at it as Black's queenside becoming a tad loose!

SmyslovFan

The Spanish is also known as one of the trappiest openings out there. Everyone knows about the Noah's Ark trap, but there are countless others. 

The fact that the Spanish includes d3 ideas does not make it equivalent to the Italian. It means that the Spanish can also be played with an Italian accent. The reverse is not really true.

lolurspammed

All this commotion because FOS dared say that he doesn't think the Ruy is the best weapon against e5. Look guys I don't think rating has anything to do with it. If Simon Williams was here he would say the Kings Gambit is the best way to play against e5, and he's higher rated than both Reb and Thriller. The person making the argument being higher rated isn't a valid point. Richard Rapport might come here saying 1.b3 is superior to all opening moves. Is this true because he's rated 2650+? Not really. I think FOS may be right and the Ruy being played by everyone will soon end. We may see a bunch of Scotches or Kings Gambits in the future.

Rumo75

If Richard Rapport said that King's Gambit were best after 1.e4 e5 and 1.b3 were superior to all other opening moves he would be laughed at by his colleagues. But Richard Rapport is not an idiot, so he would never say that. Richard Rapport has his own set of skills, his practical strenghts in unexplored positions are exceptional. So he often plays offbeat stuff that suits his strenghts, well aware that these lines are slightly inferior to high end openings.

ThrillerFan
lolurspammed wrote:

All this commotion because FOS dared say that he doesn't think the Ruy is the best weapon against e5. Look guys I don't think rating has anything to do with it. If Simon Williams was here he would say the Kings Gambit is the best way to play against e5, and he's higher rated than both Reb and Thriller. The person making the argument being higher rated isn't a valid point. Richard Rapport might come here saying 1.b3 is superior to all opening moves. Is this true because he's rated 2650+? Not really. I think FOS may be right and the Ruy being played by everyone will soon end. We may see a bunch of Scotches or Kings Gambits in the future.

Another fool posting a croc of sh*t!

The King's Gambit isn't even sound, fool!

And FoS isn't just being stupid here, he does it all across the site when he doesn't even know what he's talking about!

Stop defending the fool!  You'll just join him in the idiots club!

Arawn_of_Annuvin
Fiveofswords wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:

When the titled players say that the Spanish is the most complex opening, they aren't just talking about tactics, they are also talking about strategies. Even +2800 rated players can be led astray and make strategic errors in the Spanish. It says a tremendous amount about the Spanish that until 2000, the Berlin was considered to be just great for White. It took a world champion at the height of his powers to demonstrate Black's defensive resources. And even now, 15 years later, that variation alone is one of the most popular for both sides.

The Spanish has been studied as long as the modern game of chess has been around, and it's still offering huge challenges. There is no other opening that compares to the Queen of Openings in terms of its longevity and strategic complexity. 

Every single world champion has played the Spanish, as white or Black, and most have played both sides in serious competition. Few other openings have such a pedigree, and none beginning with 1.e4.

yes...it does say a lot that amny gms assumed the berlin was not a good line until around 2000. much like how some time ago all the best players in the world felt the ruy was inferior to the italian.

Well at least you're now using he phrase "some time ago." In another thread you said "100 years ago" so I did some database research using Mega Database 2015 and found that the Ruy Lopez three times as much as the Italian Game in 1915.

I think that your argument that grandmasters used to believe that 3...Nf6 was not as strong as 3...a6 is not convincing. It is like those that point to mistakes that Charles Darwin made in his theory of evolution in trying to discredit modern science. All you are saying is that people make mistakes. To bolster your point perhaps you could provide more concrete analysis as to why moves like 3.Nc3, 3.Bc4 and 3.d4 are as strong as 3.Bb5.

VLaurenT
ThrillerFan wrote:
hicetnunc wrote:

So if I understand correctly, a 1700 OTB player, who has played 20 games is arguing with a 2200+ National Master who has played 100 times more... (2 400 games ! That's like 10 000 hrs of OTB chess).

If the class B player understands so much, you have to wonder why he doesn't want to prove his point in competitions ? As for him claiming he is stronger than Reb, well, what's the word above 'ridiculous' in English ?

However, I agree that Reb shouldn't lose his time arguing with this person. He is kind enough to share his knowledge. Some will be wise enough to hear him, some won't.

Well, not quite.  The 2400 games statistics is mine, not Reb's, so not sure if he's played 2400 games or not, but upper half of expert (in the 2100s) with over 2400 games, yes, he argues all the time claining he knows so much more than a National Master like Reb or a rock solid expert like me.

 

He'll tell you it's all about "intellect"!

Ok, thanks for the clarification and sorry for the confusion. I guess Reb must have a decent amount of rated games under his belt as well.

Ziryab
Fiveofswords wrote:
Reb wrote:

Its not about rating but chess understanding .  You don't seem to get that but I am not surprised . Its not what a GM plays once in a blue moon but about what they play most often and against their peers in critical games that indicates what they believe to be " best " .  Mandy GMs will play inferior stuff against weaker players just to get them out of " book " and make them play chess .... confident that their chess understanding is superior to their weaker opponents . If you played more OTB chess you would learn/understand these things . Your " superior intellect " doesnt seem to help you much where chess is concerned .  

and why would they want to get weaker players out of book...what would they have to fear being the better player with the best opening. again your inferior intellect exposes itself and how it corrupts your chess understanding because contrary to the point you attempted to make gms do not only play the italian against weaker players.

When I was a B Class USCF player, I earned a four game match with our City Champion, a FIDE Master. (The rating gap was over 500 Elo.) He played a narrow range of openings. Through about 50 hours of intense opening preparation with the help of an Expert, I was able to play level with him in two out of three games. I could have claimed a draw by repetition in game 2, and I earned a draw in game 3. I lost the match 2 1/2 - 1/2 and gained 10 rating points.

That's why strong players like to take weaker players out of book. They nullify preparation.  

LogoCzar
ThrillerFan wrote:
lolurspammed wrote:

All this commotion because FOS dared say that he doesn't think the Ruy is the best weapon against e5. Look guys I don't think rating has anything to do with it. If Simon Williams was here he would say the Kings Gambit is the best way to play against e5, and he's higher rated than both Reb and Thriller. The person making the argument being higher rated isn't a valid point. Richard Rapport might come here saying 1.b3 is superior to all opening moves. Is this true because he's rated 2650+? Not really. I think FOS may be right and the Ruy being played by everyone will soon end. We may see a bunch of Scotches or Kings Gambits in the future.

Another fool posting a croc of sh*t!

The King's Gambit isn't even sound, fool!

And FoS isn't just being stupid here, he does it all across the site when he doesn't even know what he's talking about!

Stop defending the fool!  You'll just join him in the idiots club!

Er, I am just a spectator here, but I think even if you are right you don't need to be rude.

I agree, the kings gambit is not the best, but can you please explain, maybe in diagram form why it is unsound? I have not found it to be losing from experience

TheOldReb

Mine since late 91 : 

Record vs Opponent's Rating (Pre-event)

Lifetime (since 1991) RecordLast 12 Months
RatingGamesWinsDrawsLosses% score  RatingGamesWinsDrawsLosses% score
UNR   1     1 0.0   UNR          
700   1 1     100.0   700          
1000   1 1     100.0   1000          
1100   3 2 1   83.3   1100          
1200   2 2     100.0   1200          
1300   2 2     100.0   1300 1 1     100.0
1400   7 7     100.0   1400          
1500   14 13 1   96.4   1500 2 2     100.0
1600   33 29 2 2 90.9   1600 6 5 1   91.7
1700   29 22 7   87.9   1700 3 3     100.0
1800   29 24 2 3 86.2   1800 3 3     100.0
1900   43 32 8 3 83.7   1900 7 6   1 85.7
2000   33 15 12 6 63.6   2000 2     2 0.0
2100   33 12 12 9 54.5   2100          
2200   32 11 7 14 45.3   2200 3   3   50.0
2300   10 4 3 3 55.0   2300          
2400   3   1 2 16.7   2400          
2500   1     1 0.0   2500          
2700   1     1 0.0   2700          
  278 177 56 45 73.7     27 20 4 3 81.5
Games played since 1991 with an established regular rating of 2200 or higher: 207
Search for Players
MSA Home Page
Note: Color information, when shown, is only present if provided by the TD for events rated since January 1, 2012.
Ziryab
lolurspammed wrote:

All this commotion because FOS dared say that he doesn't think the Ruy is the best weapon against e5. Look guys I don't think rating has anything to do with it. If Simon Williams was here he would say the Kings Gambit is the best way to play against e5, and he's higher rated than both Reb and Thriller. 

I've watched Simon Williams's videos on the King's Gambit on this site and I am reading John Shaw's book on the King's Gambit. Neither GM claims the King's Gambit is superior to the Ruy Lopez, although they both recommend it as an occasional weapon.

TheOldReb

I have no idea how many total OTB tournament games I have played . I played a LOT more while living in Europe ( 14 years ) than I have played in the US . I would guestimate more than 3000 tourney games counting rapid/action chess which was very popular in Portugal  .  If you count only slower/classic time controls less than 3000 for sure .  I started in 73 so have been at it more than 40 years . In 14 years in Europe I played more otb games than in almost 30 years in the USA , and usually against stronger opposition . 

SmyslovFan
Fiveofswords wrote:

and thrillerfan...it sounds like you are projecting. because really you dont know crap about what i know...theres no way you could.

Apparently, we can't learn anything about you by reading what you write here or by looking at your OTB record, or even your games played here. 

Others are right. There's no point in answering your comments here. I hope Reb finally gets the point and moves on. He's made his points well already.

lolurspammed

Actually Williams DOES say he thinks the KG is the best way to play for a win with white against e5. Saying a certain opening is superior to all other replies to a second move is dumb no matter your rating. And btw people higher rated than you guys would disagree with you.

Arawn_of_Annuvin
lolurspammed wrote:

Actually Williams DOES say he thinks the KG is the best way to play for a win with white against e5. Saying a certain opening is superior to all other replies to a second move is dumb no matter your rating. And btw people higher rated than you guys would disagree with you.

I'm running too many things on my computer right nwo to open u my database but I think the best way to verify whether Williams truly holds this belief is to see what he plays as White after 1.e4 e5. After all he may be trying to sell books or videos or whatever it is he does.

Arawn_of_Annuvin
Fiveofswords wrote:
SmyslovFan wrote:
Fiveofswords wrote:

and thrillerfan...it sounds like you are projecting. because really you dont know crap about what i know...theres no way you could.

Apparently, we can't learn anything about you by reading what you write here or by looking at your OTB record, or even your games played here. 

Others are right. There's no point in answering your comments here. I hope Reb finally gets the point and moves on. He's made his points well already.

what point has he made? how has he proven the ruy is the best opening? He may have convinced you that hes better than you at chess...but that doesnt actually mean the ruy is the best opening.

To be fair: what point hav you made? Since it is a widely held belief amogst opening theoreticians that 3.Bb5 is the strongest move after 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 I do believe the onus is on you to provide some very concrete analysis. After all, you are challenging beliefs held by players much stronger than you.

lolurspammed

And I quote: "If my opponent plays e5. I ALWAYS play f4." -Simon Williams

TheOldReb

Who is Williams ?  Surprised  Where the kings gambit is concerned I doubt anyone had more success with it ( at the top level ) than Spassky . Bronstein also did very well with it .