Why mostly Nf6 after 1.d4 d5 2.e3

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BasDe

As the title says: why, after 1.d4 d5 2.e3 do you mostly see Nf6 being played and not e6? I was expecting that e6 would be played just as often as Nf6, transposing to QGD territory anyway, like in the diagram, but there is something else going on here...

ThrillerFan

Because 2.e3 is garbage, hemming in the Dark-Squared Bishop.

Black has no reason to play 2...e6 at all!  If White plays a more intelligent move, like 2.c4, PRESSURING d5, only then would Black play something like 2...e6, guarding the d5-pawn and hemming his own Light-squared Bishop in.

But if you are going to do nothing and play 2.e3?!, why do I have any need to play 2...e6?  I don't is the correct answer.  You have ZERO pressure on d5, so why not play a less committal move like 2...Nf6?

 

As White, you should play 2.c4 rather than 2.e3?!.  This will entice Black to play 2...e6, hemming in the Bishop on c8.  After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6, you can play 4.Bg5!, getting the Bishop outside the pawn chain before playing 5.e3.

BasDe

You've got a good point there about committal moves. I think the main reason is indeed your remark on hemming in the c8 bishop. Black want to prevent that as long as it can. Thanks!

poucin

Nf6 is more flexible than e6. U will play Nf6 anyway, while you can keep options not playing e6.

Why copyiing moves?

I don't think we can consider e3 as garbage, just leading to some transpositions but ok, that's Thrillerfan's style...

BasDe

You're right poucin, no need to copy moves. Guess, that was more of a reflex move than anything else. It's good for black to keep their options open. Thanks!

nklristic

By not playing e6, black might get his bishop out of the pawn chain later on if he wants to, or he can play e6 anyway later on.

By the way, I have a question when I think about it. e3 gives the option for black to play Bf5 right away and developing that bishop. Why isn't that a more popular move. I see that it is played but why not more often? Is there some downside in playing 2. ...Bf5 after 2.e3? 

The c pawn for white is still on the original square so Qb3 is not a threat at the moment.

poucin
nklristic a écrit :

By not playing e6, black might get his bishop out of the pawn chain later on if he wants to, or he can play e6 anyway later on.

By the way, I have a question when I think about it. e3 gives the option for black to play Bf5 right away and developing that bishop. Why isn't that a more popular move. I see that it is played but why not more often? Is there some downside in playing 2. ...Bf5 after 2.e3? 

The c pawn for white is still on the original square so Qb3 is not a threat at the moment.

Well, Bf5 is playable indeed, leading to a reversed London!

U have to be sure 3.c4-Qb3 is not a problem :

1.d4 d5 2.e3 Bf5 3.c4 e6 (3...c6 must be possible too) 4.Qb3 and now the typical move 4...Nc6 (developing instead of the tiedous b6), when 5.Qxb7 Nb4 would be scary for white.

Note that 1.d4 d5 2.c4 Bf5 (baltic defence) 3.e3 transposes, when 3.e3 is certainly not the critical move...

nklristic

Thank you for the answer. 

Now, I see that b pawn sacrifice might be good for black (after that 5. Qxb7 Nb4), as white's queen can be awkward here, but at my level, I am not sure how to pull the trigger on a move like that. It looks as if I have compensation for the pawn, but I can't calculate anything concrete so I often miss to play like this at my level. happy.png By the way, I am not really thrilled with b6 either, when my bishop is on f5 already. At the very least, it seems like a tempo loss.


Now 3. ...c6 line I seem to understand. 4.Qb3 Qc7. He cant gain a pawn here, because after 5.cxd5 cxd5, his c1 bishop is hanging so he has to resolve that at least. 


BasDe

Interesting stuff! I looked into the e6 line with Qb3 and I agree the line that the engine suggests is tactically pretty intense.

ThrillerFan

In addition to what Poucin said, there is a reason for Knights before Bishops.  Where is the Knight going?  f6!  Where is the Bishop going?  Don't know yet!  Move the piece that you know the destination of first!  The Bishop could be best placed on f5, g4, or b7.  You just do not know yet.  Keep the flexibility.  If you move the Bishop first, we all know where the Knight is going.  White has more info than he needs.

nklristic

Thanks for the answer. I understand that rule and I generally follow it. That is probably one idea why Bf5 is played, but less frequently than Nf3, that flexibility. As I don't face 1.d4 that often (perhaps it is 5/1 or something in favor of e4), I like the simplicity where that bishop is not restricted by the pawns, so I am probably a little biased. happy.png


KnightChecked
ThrillerFan wrote:

Because 2.e3 is garbage, hemming in the Dark-Squared Bishop.

...

As White, you should play 2.c4 rather than 2.e3?!.  This will entice Black to play 2...e6, hemming in the Bishop on c8.  After 1.d4 d5 2.c4 e6 3.Nc3 Nf6, you can play 4.Bg5!, getting the Bishop outside the pawn chain before playing 5.e3.

2.e3 is definitely premature by White.

Though, even in the QGD, White can comfortably play 4.e3, locking in his queen bishop, without cause for alarm. Playing Bg5 first is the traditional route, but it's not the only way.

I often choose 4.e3, like so:

1.Nf3 Nf6

2.d4 d5

3.c4 e6

4.e3

just to steer the game into QGA or Semi-Slav waters.

Depends on what kind of game White wants.