There is nothing "wrong" with 2.Nc3 if you are happy with a dead equal game.
White's only real shot at an advantage against 1...e5 is the Ruy Lopez or Scotch. Doesn't mean the other moves lose. You just won't see them in very many GM games because most top level players are not happy with an equal position as White. Black they'd be ecstatic to have equality that quickly!
If you want to play 2. Nc3 you will need to look at 2. ... Nf6.
If you play 1. ... e5 and have any opponents who play 2. ... Nf6 you need to have a look at the Frankenstein-Dracula - and don't disregard it because of its name. 
If you want to play 2. Nc3 you will need to look at 2. ... Nf6.
If you play 1. ... e5 and have any opponents who play 2. ... Nf6 you need to have a look at the Frankenstein-Dracula - and don't disregard it because of its name.
Not only 2...Nf6, but also 2...Nc6.
2...Nf6 is probably the most popular response, and probably slightly more sound than 2...Nc6, but both are clearly superior to 2...d6.
If you want to play 2. Nc3 you will need to look at 2. ... Nf6.
If you play 1. ... e5 and have any opponents who play 2. ... Nf6 you need to have a look at the Frankenstein-Dracula - and don't disregard it because of its name.
Yea a video that I found by andrew Martin sugustes:
2.....NC6 3.bC4, 4.D3, 5. F4
2...NF6 3.G2 4.Bg2
Interesting suggestions and I have found several GM Games to go over with these lines (About 150 each) so I think I should get some good ideas there.
There is nothing "wrong" with 2.Nc3 if you are happy with a dead equal game.
White's only real shot at an advantage against 1...e5 is the Ruy Lopez or Scotch. Doesn't mean the other moves lose. You just won't see them in very many GM games because most top level players are not happy with an equal position as White. Black they'd be ecstatic to have equality that quickly!
I definatly agree that the GM Games are far and few between - currently Nakumarra will play 2. NC3
Since I am not a GM and .3 pawn advantage means very little to me - I think this 2.NC3 should probably hold up until 2000 or 2200 (and that is alot of years for me)
But agreed the chess elite probably need something a little different.
(p. 89)
VIENNA GAME
(1 P-K4, P-K4; 2 N-QB3)
THE VIENNA is an introverted brother of the King's Gambit, into which
it may transpose at several points. It is played with a view to a quick
attack; but Black has a number of good equalizing defences and
frequently gets an advantage. "The strength of
his move (2 N-QB3)--paradoxically--is that
it threatends nothing," writes Tartakover. And
Weaver Adams, whose name might well be
affixed to it because he has based his "White to
Play and Win" system on it, writes that "2
N-QB3 conforms most to principles, develops
naturally, prepares P-KB4, prevents ...
P-Q4, keeps the Q1-R5 diagonal open, and
fortifies the King's pawn." But the "strength"
of 2 N-QB3 is also its weakness--it lacks
impetus.
Evans, Larry, and Walter Korn. 1965. Modern Chess Openings, 10th Edition. New York: Pitman Publishing Corporation.
by playing the vienna you might have to deal with some uncharted territory and you wont have as much benefit of many examples of the top players executing their various plans. but you do avoid one of the issues that comes with playing the ruy lopez or scotch: you avoid a dead equal game or even liquidation into a known theoretical draw endgame. in practice at higher levels white obtains an advantage from the vienna far more often.
I am ok with uncharted waters - I like analyzing my games after I play them so I tend to learn something.
The large amounts of therory is one thing I am trying to avoid - I am still a beginner and want to spend more time on tatics, end games and stratigy than I do opening therory.
I really wanted something fun to play the "Itilian Game" was just boring me to tears and and I can never get an Evans Gambit in because most players at my leval play the Two Knights.
I really thinki the Vennia gives me good practical chances and a much more cut and thrust game that the open games are known for. I know Neigel Short recommends 3. f4 against all lines - what do you think of Andrew Martins recomendations verse Neigel Shorts recomendation.
Thanks Fiveoswords
i've to agree with FOS. After Nf6, play Bc4 and probably play transposes either in a fine KGD or the Frankenstein Dracula which is complicated to say the least. Or after Nc6 play f4 and just play a better KG.
2.Nc3 is a fine move. Most people prefer Nf3 over Nc3 because the Ruy Lopez is a good opening. As long as you know all your opening lines for 2.Nc3, you will be fine. Personally, I played 2.Nc3 up to 2000 USCF rating.
After that I switched because most top level chess players know how to play against 2.Nc3 so I can't get a big advantage out of the opening against top level competition
too passive.....in your game simply bishop takes !!
I know it's slightly off topic but I found this interesting...
I watched a Video for beginners on opening priciples by David Pruess the other day in which he went through each candidate opening move that isn't 'popular' and discussed the pros/cons of them. A lot of it is pretty obvious, but one interesting tidbit was white playing 1.a3. He explained that this was once famously played against a well known GM (Morphy, I think) and apparently it totally screwed him up. It does nothing for blackès development - but it puts Black in the position of White, so Black has to decide what 'opening' to play - but they get screwed up if they try to play like they would if they were White because of the starting position of the opposing pieces.
3 f4 is probably fine against 2...nc6 or 2....bc5. i would avoid it after 2...nf6. instead 3 bc4 or 3 g3 is fine for white.
Thanks -
What I have been seeing is that against 2...nf6 3g3 seems to get good results and Andrew Martin highly recommends that line (If Mr. Martin recommends it -it is probably a good practical choice.)
Against 2....nc6 I still am up in the air but
bc4 d6 o-o ne2 f4 is the recommended line of Mr. Martin. I think I played something like in my sample game.
but the attack you eventually obtained is quite themantic...and was correctly executed...and in fact quite typical. as you play the vienna you will find that black falls into this exact same sort of mating net. absurdly often.
FOS -
I have seen this attack alot in the sample games - it seems to be a recurring theme. However:
So I am not sure I excuted the attack correctly - you input please.
Also when looking at this game I noticed:
In My game black plays a6- with intentions to grab the bishop. A simular position to this is reached in the Italian Game and a few players have played A5 as white (Micky Adams being most notiable)
na5 by black takes my bishop and then I think black has equal chances. I have seen in many games that white will allow the knight to take the bishop if it is on c4 opening lines to the d pawn and frustrating development of blacks white bishop-
I cant help but to think I missed something here - should I have played a5 - should I have created a bucket for the bishop as soon as nc6 was played - or should i have continued with my kingside plans as I did in the game (perhaps even a h3 g4 kinda sequence)
TCA
So know I am wondering is it possible to build an entire opening rep around 1.e4 ?? 2.nc3
1... e5 We already know that the Vennia game gives good practical chances (at least below 2000 as mentioned above)
1...c5 2.nc3 leads to the Closed silcian (not any worse that the alpine - which is what I am playing now, but a lot less therory)
1... c6 2.nc3 The Two Knights Attack- I beleive Bobby Fisher liked to play this but I am not sure - certainly not what the average CK player is looking at for a response.
1...e6 2.nc3 I have no idea what it is or if it has been tried much- it looks like it transposes into a winweir (sorry for the spelling) but I don't really know since I dont have much knowledge in this area.
I see think this could complete an opening rep for me - it uses lines with less therory so I can focus my study on the key points I need to so I can improve - might be good practical choices
AND has to be better than my develop my peices, castle, connect the rooks mentality that I have now - I think i am the only 1500 with out a real opening line - perhaps I should address that a little by working on these openings a little (20% of your chess study times is what I here is correct)
There is nothing "wrong" with 2.Nc3 if you are happy with a dead equal game.
lol.
So know I am wondering is it possible to build an entire opening rep around 1.e4 ?? 2.nc3
1... e5 We already know that the Vennia game gives good practical chances (at least below 2000 as mentioned above)
1...c5 2.nc3 leads to the Closed silcian (not any worse that the alpine - which is what I am playing now, but a lot less therory)
1... c6 2.nc3 The Two Knights Attack- I beleive Bobby Fisher liked to play this but I am not sure - certainly not what the average CK player is looking at for a response.
1...e6 2.nc3 I have no idea what it is or if it has been tried much- it looks like it transposes into a winweir (sorry for the spelling) but I don't really know since I dont have much knowledge in this area.
I see think this could complete an opening rep for me - it uses lines with less therory so I can focus my study on the key points I need to so I can improve - might be good practical choices
AND has to be better than my develop my peices, castle, connect the rooks mentality that I have now - I think i am the only 1500 with out a real opening line - perhaps I should address that a little by working on these openings a little (20% of your chess study times is what I here is correct)
the closed sicilian actually probably is worse than the alapin. anyway there is no reason at all to even bother building a repetoire based on 2nc3 against anything. if you like nc3 that much then you should play it on move 1....but theres no logical reason to like it so much.
ROFL....
So know I am wondering is it possible to build an entire opening rep around 1.e4 ?? 2.nc3
1... e5 We already know that the Vennia game gives good practical chances (at least below 2000 as mentioned above)
1...c5 2.nc3 leads to the Closed silcian (not any worse that the alpine - which is what I am playing now, but a lot less therory)
1... c6 2.nc3 The Two Knights Attack- I beleive Bobby Fisher liked to play this but I am not sure - certainly not what the average CK player is looking at for a response.
1...e6 2.nc3 I have no idea what it is or if it has been tried much- it looks like it transposes into a winweir (sorry for the spelling) but I don't really know since I dont have much knowledge in this area.
I see think this could complete an opening rep for me - it uses lines with less therory so I can focus my study on the key points I need to so I can improve - might be good practical choices
AND has to be better than my develop my peices, castle, connect the rooks mentality that I have now - I think i am the only 1500 with out a real opening line - perhaps I should address that a little by working on these openings a little (20% of your chess study times is what I here is correct)
in your game with all this stuff about na5 and a6 and stuff...well in this position it seems to miss the point because black played a very passive d6 and irrelevant h6 and you responded with passive ne2 and are worried about manouvers while your correct attitude should be that black is lagging far too much in development and you want to open up lines so that you can just kill him. but anyway this na5 manouver is pretty common in real lines of the virnna. no it doesnt give black easy equality. of course after he makes this exchange the position is altered quite a bit...obviously whites kingside pressure becomes less relevant but the opening of the d file creates new possibilities for white...normally black is forced to play c6 to avoid occupation of d5 from white and then his d6 pawn becomes quite weak. remember that if whote has not yet committed his queenside bishop then a manouver like b3 and ba3 can make the situation on d6 rather critical. and by dominating the d file and the sort of tactical pins involved white can also make blacks e5 pawn rather weak as well. such positions actually score quite well for white in practice even though computers dont seem thrilled with the position. it is very much in the spirit of the vienna for white to be comfortable with drastic changes in the position and never commit himself to a single plan of obtaining an advantage.
Excellant - thanks so much FOS that is more than emnough fat to chew on for a while. Last thing, do you recommend a book on the vennia or stay with my current course and study GM games?
Thanks again FOS you have been a great help.
RS
I was looking through my chessbase database and I realized that white played 2.NF3 about 250,000 times compared to 2. NC3 at about 30,000 times (ChessBase Mega DataBase 2013).
I know the ruy lopez is a big contributer to this but I couldn't help but ask myself is 2.NC3 that much worse - I spent two days playing around with variations and reading articles - the following game is the result.