Why play 1. Nc3?

lol, I can't believe I didn't see that!

There is no refutation to this opening, is there? I'll just settle for the french defence since anyone playing this with 1400 or higher rating probably knows the line.

No there is no refutation - if there was, then it would not be played at all.  The only "downside" is that the knight blocks the c-pawn, but then again, White is claiming control of e4 and d5, and he has the ability to shift the knight to the kingside, where it obviously helps with surprise attacks. 

Anyone who downs this opening would do so because of what someone else says, but if they think it is that bad, prove it. 

I don't know enough about it to tell you every opening line.  But it is obvious -

Development is quick

White fights for control of the center

Bishops get good placement

I don't see a good reason to at least try it.

Think of it this way - you play 1. e4 and your friend, who is booked in the Najdorf (for instance) tromps you consistently with his understanding of the position.  Then you play 1. d4 and he gets you constantly with his understanding of the King's Indian, let's pretend.  Now you pull out 1. Nc3 - hey, what book lines can he play against that?  I have played 1. f4 against people and trashed them, and then tried 1. d4 and lost!  They knew the 1. d4 book lines better than me - that was to my disadvantage.

I have consistently played better when I leave the beaten path in search of new waters, since it is me against my opponent, and they has no strong lines to lean on.

I am going to create a group for this opening - I will post the name shortly - it will be a private group, but if you are truly interested, write me an email.  We can generate tournaments and vote chess games with this opening, and plus people meet people who like similar openings, and can discuss ideas and opinions.  I already have a group for 1. f4, Bird's Opening Lovers, for people who like to learn about 1. f4 - it is 20 members strong now I believe, which isn't bad for a new group.  I think this group can have similar potential. 

4.Qf3 is better than 4.Nc3

http://www.chess.com/groups/home/quotder-linksspringer-1nc3-1nc6quot-fans

Here is the link for the group, for anyone who is interested!

It is called "Der Linksspringer - 1. Nc3 1...Nc6 Fans!"

I thought white usually plays 3: e5 after

1. e4 Nc6 2. d4 d5

There is no refutation for any opening, only certain lines in that opening.

1. f4 is acceptable, albeit I still believe black obtains an advantage after 1. ...e5, but the LINE that is refuted is 2. g4...

Yes cheesehat!  And 1. f4 e5 2. g4 refuted?  Whatever made you think that way?  :-)

I think any opening is acceptable to play at the club level.  As long as you know the positions better, you will likely be fine.

Yes, that is definetely true!  People are afraid to play other openings because they think they are "unacceptable".  But even the best in the world still have to understand other openings, otherwise they get beat!  A great example - Karpov v. Miles.  Who could dare discredit the St. George defense when the World Champ lost against it?

yeah 1... a6 (the st. george I believe) is not as bad as it seems. it prepares to fianchetto the c8 bishop with the move ...b5. the b pawn can be used for the queenside, to prevent c4, or to attack a c3 knight. I think black wants to play c5 at some point also.

Yes, I wrote that.

Nc3 is rather provacative. It wants black to play ...d4 but when he does that black has plenty of chances he just has to be careful about some weakened squares. I would be very happy to have that kind of position with black, who is usually passive. I know that playing ...d4 is double edged, but it can translate into a queenside attack. d5 is a good answer to 1 e4 nc6 2 d4 e5 3 d5 if not the best, probably giving white a slight edge. I don't think the computer is totally wrong, because eventually white will need to play f4 to attack the chain which will take lots of preparation. Black could even play ...Nc6 and omit ...c5, like he does in the reti. When I last posted here, I just assumed that some openings were bad. Now I'm seriously analyzing it. And if 1...d5 2 e4 d4 was so bad, then Nc3 would be played much much more often, because then he transposes into good openings after a move other than 2...d4, and can have all the fun when black does play it.

1.Nc3 d5 2.e4 c6!

And black is better

Also, can someone tell me what is wrong with 1 nc3 e5 2  Nf3 Nc6 3 d4 exd4 4 Nxd4 Bc5? It looks like the knight is driven back and then black can play ...d5, so white should just transpose. So I stand by my claim that the opening either gives black chances he normally wouldn't get (he just shouldn't overestimate them, but the d4 pawn gives him plenty of counterplay and the a2-g8 diagonal can be challenged by an eventual ...Be6.) or transposes.

Sure enough black scores well indeed after 1 Nc3 d5 2 e4 d4 3 Ne2. Maybe it's overrated, but it's still good so I don't think the computer is way off. Yet another answer is 2...dxe4 Nxe4 e5 with no particular problems. Isn't it kind of like a caro kann without the c6 move and with a pawn at e5? According to you ozzie, black must be winning from that position.

Edit: Sorry, 4 Bc4 could give black problems. But 3...Nf6 gets rid of the e4 knight so this is good.

If you are an accelerated dragon player just play 1...c5 and go into your normal lines.  White has already commited his Queenside knight and will be unable to push c4.

I'm seriously studying it, but I still think that 2...d4 + 3...e5 line is comfortable for black. If it wasn't, Nc3 would be very popular. White can develop his problem bishop, but he has to move his knights a couple of times (and f4 is a long way) and the bishop can get kicked by ...a6 and ...b5 (along with ...c5) eventually which is part of black's plan anyway. Compare this queenside expansion to some of the passive positions you can get out of the steinitz defense for example when Reuben Fine said it's hard for black to hold a draw and if he does that's all he's getting! But Fine is sometimes a bit too harsh, especially for the respected english opening. It's not bad for white, but black gets his fair share of the play. Keep in mind as black, that's excellent.

And thanks to whoever bumped this. I forgot about this but it turns out I have new things to say.

I think it's equal also. But I don't understand why, in many books and on here, that people are afraid of pushing the d pawn in this opening and the nimzowitsch defense. Black should be able to get play on the queenside and ozzie saying that it plays into white's trumps I have to disagree. I would feel very comfortable on the black side of 1 Nc3 d5 2 e4 d4 3 Ne2 and it would be an interesting game. You say that having never even played into that position (I'm assuming) as many say the same thing.

"Nc3 offers no advantages over anything else"

Yes it does....people do not prepare for it. You dont think people prepare opening for no reason. They prepare them so they can do better against them. So the fact you avoid their preparation is an advantage.