Personally I think the Dutch is similar to the Modern defense (aka Robatsch) in that it is an inferior setup / version of the King's Indian Defense. Black gets all the weaknesses that he gets in the KID, but without any of the aggressiveness.
Why would you play dutch in the first place?
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Oct 21, 2021
0
#63
Okay. I have a question, for the Dutch players:
What are the upsides, and the downsides, of the Dutch that you play?
["e.g. I play the Stonewall, upsides... downsides..."]
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And also another one: GM Simon Williams, he plays the Classical Dutch as Black, okay... so why does he play 1.d4 as Black? Why not 1.f4 - The Bird - which is really a Dutch, one tempo up? [right, that's a question for Him, but, try..] and plz don't say "From's Gambit" because 1. You can transpose to the King's Gambit. 2. A gambit doesn't refute an opening.
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One last question: Against the Bird, there's the From's Gambit, so, isn't there an even tougher gambit then against the Dutch? [since the Dutch is one tempo down?] or do you just start the Bird with e3?
Oct 21, 2021
0
#64
Laskersnephew wrote:
Carlsen, Caruana, Aronian, Grishuk, Nepomniachtchi, and Nakamura have all played the Dutch in Important tournaments. But why pay any attention to them when someone rated 1625 on Chess.com can tell you that the Dutch is sub-optimal?
Good point. Can I please see some of the games? - from the important tournaments. I don't know to search for them very well.
[the question goes for all of you. I'd love to see many games won by Dutch Defense - serious, tournament / championship ones]
Oct 21, 2021
0
#65
@ConfusedGhoul and @ricorat,
White's plan of pushing e4 isn't lost on me. 7...Qe8 is a move that's made specifically because of the e4 threat. The idea is to place the queen on g6, where it helps support/defend the e4 square.
I haven't seen Simon Williams' analysis of the Classical Dutch, though I do plan to check it out.
In the meantime, see this game from the 8th World Champion, Mikhail Tal.
Tal went on to win this game. (Interestingly enough, I see that Williams also played this line in 2009.)
I'm still new to studying the Dutch, so my opinions on it will likely change over time. But at the moment, I believe ...Qe8 to ...Qg6 is a playable line, at the very least - worth further study.
Oct 21, 2021
0
#66
Stil1 wrote:
@ConfusedGhoul and @ricorat,
White's plan of pushing e4 isn't lost on me. 7...Qe8 is a move that's made specifically because of the e4 threat. The idea is to place the queen on g6, where it helps support/defend the e4 square.
I haven't seen Simon Williams' analysis of the Classical Dutch, though I do plan to check it out.
In the meantime, see this game from the 8th World Champion, Mikhail Tal.
Tal went on to win this game. (Interestingly enough, I see that Williams also played this line in 2009.)
I'm still new to studying the Dutch, so my opinions on it will likely change over time. But at the moment, I believe ...Qe8 to ...Qg6 is a playable line, at the very least - worth further study.
Oh yes considering 7.Qe8 is the most popular move it’s very much good and playable. I myself just prefer the more tricky 7.Ne4 line. The other move you might want to look into is 7.a5. It’s not as popular as 7.Qe8 but played a bit more than 7.Ne4. The classical Dutch is a great way to fight 1.d4 as it gives an unbalanced and tactical attacking game! And as for Simon, I would highly recommend looking into some of his games as he’s known for his work on the opening 
Oct 21, 2021
0
#67
ricorat wrote:
Oh yes considering 7.Qe8 is the most popular move it’s very much good and playable. I myself just prefer the more tricky 7.Ne4 line. The other move you might want to look into is 7.a5. It’s not as popular as 7.Qe8 but played a bit more than 7.Ne4. The classical Dutch is a great way to fight 1.d4 as it gives an unbalanced and tactical attacking game! And as for Simon, I would highly recommend looking into some of his games as he’s known for his work on the opening
I'll be sure to check those out, thanks.
I've been looking to branch out from the QGD and the more I look at the Dutch, the more interesting it seems, as a sharp, unbalanced weapon.
(One of my first chess heroes, the legendary Paul Morphy, also played the Dutch, so there's that, too ...)
Oct 21, 2021
0
#68
Stil1 wrote:
ricorat wrote:
Oh yes considering 7.Qe8 is the most popular move it’s very much good and playable. I myself just prefer the more tricky 7.Ne4 line. The other move you might want to look into is 7.a5. It’s not as popular as 7.Qe8 but played a bit more than 7.Ne4. The classical Dutch is a great way to fight 1.d4 as it gives an unbalanced and tactical attacking game! And as for Simon, I would highly recommend looking into some of his games as he’s known for his work on the opening
I'll be sure to check those out, thanks.
I've been looking to branch out from the QGD and the more I look at the Dutch, the more interesting it seems, as a sharp, unbalanced weapon.
(One of my first chess heroes, the legendary Paul Morphy, also played the Dutch, so there's that, too ...)
I never knew that Morphy played it, I’ll have to check his games out in ti
B1ZMARK wrote:
I believe GM Malaniuk (or something like that spelling) plays the Leningrad regularly.
I don't think he plays it any more- he passed away 4 years ago.
Oct 22, 2021
0
#71
Stil1 wrote:
Here's one of him playing the Classical Dutch:
That’s a nice game
seriously, people probably play the dutch because they want to lose
op ?? ur playing 1200 chess. can u # w/ castle & king yet ?
if u wanna go off then play this:
the dutch rox ppl !
Oct 23, 2021
0
#76
I think the owner of this thread is right - here, fresh from oven - how to refute a Dutch, by the master of Dutch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8O6xL6scx_A
I'm joking, don't stone me now.
dutch not easy to study, too much sharp variations
Oct 24, 2021
0
#78
pfren wrote:
B1ZMARK wrote:
I believe GM Malaniuk (or something like that spelling) plays the Leningrad regularly.
I don't think he plays it any more- he passed away 4 years ago.
Bummer. Lost on time.
Oct 24, 2021
0
#79
He was right in one thing - you can't just play 1...f5 - White can play the Hopton Attack - recommended by Stockfish, won by myself (just now):
So you sac a bishop... (if I actually knew the Hopton Attack, I don't even think I had to sac it, but...)
You need to play 1...e6 first. That's why he got confused - thinking it's a bad opening
As a Dutch player, there are plenty off reasons one may want to play it, it offers black good winning chances as the positions are pretty crazy and imbalanced. And how does one "refute" this setup with 1.e6 instead of 1.f5?
So while yes the Dutch is a bit risky I don't see a way to refute this setup. If any players do see a way to, please let me know.
Hey Rico,
You might want to consider 7...Qe8 instead of an immediate 7...Ne4.
...Qe8 is considered the "standard" move there, as it allows the queen to redirect to g6 or h5, depending on the position's needs.
It also allows black a little more time to uncoil, before immediately clarifying the ideas in the center.
@Stil1 Actually 7.Ne4 is Simon Williams recommendation for black. I feel the immediate Qe8, is a bit rushed and can wait a bit. The idea behind 7.Ne4 is to prevent e4! from white. Here's a diagram of the theory:
Even according to the database (granted it has been played less than Qe8) it scores better. Although it's all a matter of personal preference
@ConfusedGhoul The variation you mentioned while tricky for black, he still gets some play.
As you see in the diagram black may seem worse but still has some good practical play. Ofc though that is probably the most challenging way to fight the classical Dutch with 7.Ne4