Best 10 Player Of All time

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aansel

Ratings can not be an accurate guide as historical ratings are only accurate. Comparing generations of greats from various sporting activities is fun but always subjective! Also match play which was much more common years ago is different than tournament play. Also the number of tournaments, the ability and ease of information changes everything. I remember in the 90's Bareev was #4 in the World but had never won a major invitation only event.

Daniel3
goldendog wrote:

If mere ratings determine greatest and strongest, why idolize Petrosian so much? This would mean there are a hundred players around today that are better than him.

And why place Petrosian above Fischer, Daniel? His rating is more than 100 points lower and Fischer beat him in two matches with a combined score of 9.5-3.5. That's a crush.


Some GM players were great not because they were better than modern players, but because they were geniuses for their time. I like Petrosian a lot because if his style of play, not because of how he matches up to modern players. I also do believe that many modern players such as Kramnik, Topalov, Anand, and Karpov could take on or even beat some of the great masters from earlier on. One of these days, someone like Topalov will be referred to in the same sentences as other "old" masters. 

Maybe saying that Petrosian was better than Fischer was not the right way to say it. What I meant was that I liked Petrosian's games better, and that overall I believe that his play was extremely sound. Even though Fischer beat him in one match, that doesn't mean that his game was totally off. Many people disregard Petrosian simply because Fischer played in the same time period. I don't see how people could forget the Petrosian-Spassky matches (even though Spassky eventually won) or the way Petrosian was crushing everyone right-left-and-center after Botvinnik. Fischer's play was much more dynamic, and in fact I seem to play with a more aggressive style myself, but Petrosian will always be one of my favorite players.

goldendog
Reb wrote:

What was Tal's peak rating anyway ? I know it wasnt even close to Fischers and maybe even less than Spassky's which was about 2690  or so but Spassky also never broke 2700.


 In 1980 January list Tal is 2705. In the retrospective Elo list he has a peak 5 year period rating of 2700. I think Elo used a 5 year period...pretty sure.

The first FIDE list was made in 1969.

wingtzun

The Definitive List!:

Kasparov

Fischer

Karpov

Botvinik

Capablanca

Alekhine

Lasker

Petrosian

Keres

Korchnoi (for sheer longevity at 2600+ rating).

wingtzun

As Gumpty says, Howard Staunton was also very very good and perhaps number 12 behind Morphy.

TheOldReb

One thing I respect Karpov most for is the fact that he was such an active world champion. In fact, isnt he still playing ? He is 58 this year and dont forget he actually won his last match against his nemesis Kasparov !  Its a shame that Fischer quit when he did and deprived the world of many beautiful games between the two of them ! I think they would have had no other competition until 1984 and the arrival of Kasparov.

goldendog
Daniel3 wrote:
goldendog wrote:

If mere ratings determine greatest and strongest, why idolize Petrosian so much? This would mean there are a hundred players around today that are better than him.

And why place Petrosian above Fischer, Daniel? His rating is more than 100 points lower and Fischer beat him in two matches with a combined score of 9.5-3.5. That's a crush.


Some GM players were great not because they were better than modern players, but because they were geniuses for their time. I like Petrosian a lot because if his style of play, not because of how he matches up to modern players. I also do believe that many modern players such as Kramnik, Topalov, Anand, and Karpov could take on or even beat some of the great masters from earlier on. One of these days, someone like Topalov will be referred to in the same sentences as other "old" masters.

Maybe saying that Petrosian was better than Fischer was not the right way to say it. What I meant was that I liked Petrosian's games better, and that overall I believe that his play was extremely sound. Even though Fischer beat him in one match, that doesn't mean that his game was totally off. Many people disregard Petrosian simply because Fischer played in the same time period. I don't see how people could forget the Petrosian-Spassky matches (even though Spassky eventually won) or the way Petrosian was crushing everyone right-left-and-center after Botvinnik. Fischer's play was much more dynamic, and in fact I seem to play with a more aggressive style myself, but Petrosian will always be one of my favorite players.


 I know by the comments over the years that Petrosian was a very difficult player to deal with. For less than very strong GMs his play was often baffling and his opponents didn't know what he was up to or even how the game was going.

Karpov was just the odd game up in their life score. Spassky the same as I recall.

Korchnoi eventually "solved" him though and Fischer certainly did. BTW, Fischer won two matches from Petrosian.

Petrosian's record as WC is not stellar, like Karpov's or Kasparov's. He often (I want to say typically) had mediocre tournament results due to many draws. According to The Oxford Companion to Chess, he played 7 tournaments as champion and won 2 of them (tied each time with Keres). It isn't explicit whether this is just for the first 3 years but I think it must be as he won the Moscow championship in 1968. His results after he lost the title were quite good though.

P.S. I'm all for anyone admiring any of the top players. For us patzers, there are more lessons there than we can ever assimilate.

goldendog
Reb wrote:

One thing I respect Karpov most for is the fact that he was such an active world champion. In fact, isnt he still playing ? He is 58 this year and dont forget he actually won his last match against his nemesis Kasparov !  Its a shame that Fischer quit when he did and deprived the world of many beautiful games between the two of them ! I think they would have had no other competition until 1984 and the arrival of Kasparov.


 When the chess fans get very lucky there are two superb players playing near their peaks at the same time. We got Karpov-Kasparov and far too few of Capablanca-Alekhine, and none of Fischer-Karpov.

Daniel3

It's true that Petrosain drew quite a few of his games. This is no doubt a direct result of his cautious play and his hesitance to attack until he felt secure. In fact, it seemed that he won some games just by defending! He would wait until his opponent made a mistake, while never doing the same himself, and then pounce. 

I admit that sometimes his play was less dynamic than I would like. Overall, I tend to admire players more like Alekhine or Kasparov than Petrosian because they combine attacks with a positional understanding that is spectacular to watch. Indeed, it is my belief that any really great player must master both attacking and strategy.

As you said, us patzers learn from anyone better than us; even if he wasn't the best-of-the-best. Thinking that you will become the best player ever by only studying Kasparov's games is silly.

mq1982

Off the top of my head.  SOme are obvious others are opinion!

Kasparov - best ever

Fischer - just behind Kasparov (If only he'd played longer and defended his title).

Morphy - Fischer classed him as the best ever (I don't)!

Tal - brilliant: the best compliment you can give a chess player is to say "you play like Tal".

Alekhine - Super-strong for so long.

Capablanca - way, way ahead of his time - amazing for his time.  With better opponents he prbably would've been ever stronger.

Karpov - a Top, TOP-GM for many years... enough said?... how about his calculation expertise then?

Reti - bringing new ideas and styles to chess.

Botvinik - 3 times champion and a great, solid player.  Small advantages to Botvinik meant the game was his.

Spassky - the best Russian player at a time of great Russian players.

goldendog
mq1982 wrote:

 

Reti - bringing new ideas and styles to chess.

 


 Reti is like Tal. For fans, if they like him they love him. He's one of the thinkers of chess (and he ended Capa's unbeaten string at NY 1924).

Daniel3

That's a nice list there! I agree with everything but putting Morphy ahead of Alekhine. Alekhine should certainly be near the top of the list.

mq1982
goldendog wrote:
mq1982 wrote:

 

Reti - bringing new ideas and styles to chess.

 


 Reti is like Tal. For fans, if they like him they love him. He's one of the thinkers of chess (and he ended Capa's unbeaten string at NY 1924).


 Yes, he never got higher than 6th in the rankings list, but ratings and rankings can't tell the whole story.

If I had 11 places I'd put Staunton in there, too!

jpd303

on steinitz: his worst tournament performance in that 28-year period was third place in Paris (1867)...Steinitz was further ahead of his contemporaries in the 1870s than Bobby Fischer was in his peak period (1970–1972)...Steinitz had the third-highest total number of years as the world's top player, behind Emanuel Lasker and Garry Kasparov; and that Steinitz placed 7th in a comparison of how long the great players were ranked in the world's top three...Sonas, J. (2005). "The Greatest Chess Player of All Time – Part I...goldendog your right, i get my facts jumbeled in my head...this was the start of a 24-game winning streak in serious competition, "World Exhibitions". http://www.endgame.nl/wfairs.htm. Retrieved on 2008-11-19.en.wikipedia.org:Wilhelm_Steinitz">  anyway, i still think Steinitz should be in the top 10 of anyones list

wuwuwuwuwu

my opinion is:

Morphy,Capablanca,Fischer,Kasparov,Karpov,Spassky,Tal,Topalov,Anand,Petrosian.

Duffer1965

One factor in the difficulty of historical comparisons that I don't think has been mentioned is the fact that chess knowledge is cumulative. In these discussions we always leave out names like Giacchino Greco and Ruy Lopez, although they were in their own times considered the strongest players in the world. All the knowledge the Anand has was built on a foundation that started with these "ancients." I have always been curious about how you compare the inventiveness of players today, who can come up with an interesting novelty on move 15 of some line in the Sicilian Defense, compared to the ancient who was the first player to wonder whether you could make 1 . . . c5 work against 1 e4.

I don't think we can answer this, but it for me raises a significant question about comparing, say Morphy with Fischer with Kasparov. Fischer got to add all his interesting ideas to what Morphy had thought up and Kasparov got to do the same with Fischer's ideas.

clms_chessdc

top 3 in order:fischer (shoulda played more) kasparov, morphy. (i don't kno many more =()

abhayb

For me it would be as follows,

Capablanca

Morphy

Kasparov

Lasker

Fischer

Steinitz

Anand

Tal

Alekhine

Spassky/Botvinnk

MAREL

No. 1 King Fischer,capablanca,morphy,alekhine,kasparov,karpov,spassky,kosteniuk,botvinik,torre.

MAREL

No. 1 King Fischer,capablanca,morphy,alekhine,kasparov,karpov,spassky,kosteniuk,botvinik,torre.