Plus scores vs Fischer?

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Ilundar
Reb wrote:
Ilundar wrote:

Tal had 4-2 against Fischer.

Fischer fans say 4-4 but they have to include 2 blitz games from Herceg Novi 1970.Not very serious......


 Tal won all 4 of his games against Fischer when Fischer was 15 and Tal was in his prime. After those 4 games Tal never beat Fischer again. The blitz games were played when both were adults and yes they should count since Tal even won a world blitz championship in the 80s in Canada with even Kasparov playing ! Fischer won both blitz games against Tal and if you are gonna count the wins against a 15 yr old Fischer then certainly the blitz games should count when both were adults.

He was 15,but still he was a Candidate,so what's the fuss ? This 4-0 surely has its value.After all,I don't remember Tal scoring 28/28 in that tourney.Then Fischer scored two wins in serious chess and these two wins in Herceg Novi.I'm not saying Tal was globally stronger,since he certainly was not.But come on....you can't compare 5 minutes games to 2.30/40 moves.Having no news from Hell-Heaven matches,I'll stick to my 4-2 in Tal's favor


Ilundar
Reb wrote:

Tal himself said he beat Fischer when he was Tal but Fischer was not yet Fischer ! Tal's 4 wins came in 1959 and he won the world championship in 1960 , clearly a 15 year old Bobby was not playing chess at Tal's level yet. They met again only 2 years later in 61 and again in 62 and Fischer won both games, even though he was still just a teen. Surely Tal had not lost much strength from 1960 to 1961 ? It would seem to me that an "overall record" would include all tournament games they had played with each other. If you mean only classic games then perhaps you should specify only classic games. Yes, in classic games alone Tal is +2 against Fischer. In classic games alone both Spassky and Petrosian have 50% score with Kasparov.


 Yeah and Gulko has +2 (3-1) Tongue out But some will say Kasparov lost the first two games when he was young and blahblahblah...

Anyway,Gulko was a extremely strong Grandmaster in the 70's.Korchnoi once said he could have achieved much more if he had defected like him instead of asking for permission.And Gulko was one of the guys who did not sign the anti-Korchnoi collective letter,alongside with Botvinnik,Bronstein and Spassky.They dared not bother the Patriarch but the three other ones did not have an easy life after that.

goldendog
Ilundar wrote:
Reb wrote:
Ilundar wrote:

Tal had 4-2 against Fischer.

Fischer fans say 4-4 but they have to include 2 blitz games from Herceg Novi 1970.Not very serious......


 Tal won all 4 of his games against Fischer when Fischer was 15 and Tal was in his prime. After those 4 games Tal never beat Fischer again. The blitz games were played when both were adults and yes they should count since Tal even won a world blitz championship in the 80s in Canada with even Kasparov playing ! Fischer won both blitz games against Tal and if you are gonna count the wins against a 15 yr old Fischer then certainly the blitz games should count when both were adults.

He was 15,but still he was a Candidate,so what's the fuss ? This 4-0 surely has its value.After all,I don't remember Tal scoring 28/28 in that tourney.Then Fischer scored two wins in serious chess and these two wins in Herceg Novi.I'm not saying Tal was globally stronger,since he certainly was not.But come on....you can't compare 5 minutes games to 2.30/40 moves.Having no news from Hell-Heaven matches,I'll stick to my 4-2 in Tal's favor



 If we cite lifetime scores and imply they reflect a fair assessment of two players' strength, then we have to put asterisks afterwards: Fischer was 16, Tal was sick and about to go into hospital, Capablanca had a stroke during this tournament, Alekhine was drunk, Korchnoi's son was being held by Soviet authorities and being beaten, etc..

All pertinent and worthy of discussion but they don't fit conveniently on a line, like +4 -1 =3.

Santero13

In Chess as in Boxing "styles make fights"..A can beat B, and B can beat C, but it doesnt necessarily follow that A can beat C!....Great article and love that GELLER is mentione, he was firec indeed and a great theoritican....FYI for the unitiated:

The one player not mentioned who is also overlooked is the great "LEONID STEIN" 

He and FISCHER were to play a FIDEL CASTRO sanctioned match when both were in CUBA for a tournament. Unfortunately it never came off and a year later STEIN was dead of a heart atack at the incredibly young age of 38.

Like KERES he was very close to being a World Champion, unlike KERES, he didnt have much opportunity; the system that the Soviets were compelled to follow, made it difficult for more than a certain number of players to qualify for the Candidates Tournament.

There are 2 books of and about LEONID STEIN I am aware of in ENGLISH that the ardent student and/or historian of the game may avail themself of. "MASTER OF ATTACK BY RAYMOND D KEENE and " MASTER OF RISK STRATEGY BY GRANDMASTER EDUARD GUFELD, are the books.

CHEERS everyone 

Misunderestimated1

I remember buying a chess book a while ago and the author claimed he was the only person with a plus score against Fischer.  They played one tournament game and he beat Fischer but I can't find the book or remember the author's name.