Who is the greatest chess player of all time ?? Bobby Fischer ??

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grenoulle3000

The greatest chessplayer of all time? What a silly question. There's no one answer. All masters are great and the rockstars of chess are all super great. Having to pick one greatest chessplayer of all time is like asking an astronomer what the best Disney cartoon character is.

SteveCollyer
Chessmetrics all time 3-year peak top 10 players:
 
#1  Garry Kasparov       2874    1989-Jan through 1991-Dec   
#2  Bobby Fischer         2867    1971-Jan through 1973-Dec   
#3  José Capablanca      2857    1919-Jan through 1921-Dec   
#4  Emanuel Lasker        2855    1894-Jan through 1896-Dec
#5  Mikhail Botvinnik     2852    1945-Jan through 1947-Dec   
#6  Alexander Alekhine   2841    1930-Jan through 1932-Dec   
#7  Anatoly Karpov         2833    1988-Jan through 1990-Dec   
#8  Viswanathan Anand    2822    1997-Jan through 1999-Dec  
#9  Vladimir Kramnik       2815    2000-Jan through 2002-Dec   
#10  Harry Pillsbury         2806    1900-Jan through 1902-Dec
 
I wanted to discover to what extent the best OTB players match Houdini at the peak of their careers.
Although chessmetrics seems to be outdated now & its findings somewhat controversial, I think this historic data (the site was active up to 2005 I think) will be of use.
What I did was simply select the first 20 games from each player's peak start year from chessgames.com which each have =/+35 total moves.  The games were not rapid/blitz as far as I can tell & I excluded games where the opponent had less than 20 entries on the database, to avoid unspecified simuls & other casual games vs weaker players.
I used the quad-core version of Houdini 1.5a on a quad-core processor with 4GB RAM.  30 second min analysis per ply, 512 MB hash table, max depth = 20 ply.
The results were unfiltered Batch Analyzer ones, the same as for the suspected engine users who I have analysed.  Batch Analyzer usually does a decent job of removing most theoretical moves, however it is quite possible that some games remain in book for several ply, so a few book moves form part of the analysis.  If anything, that should mean the benchmarks may show very slightly inflated match rates, though this should make very little difference given the reasonably large sample sizes for each player.
 
 
                                                  Chessmetrics Top 10 Peak Year Play 
 
Kasparov Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Garry Kasparov (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 413/699 ( 59.1% )  Opponents: 362/697 ( 51.9% )
{ Top 2 Match: 538/699 ( 77.0% )  Opponents: 491/697 ( 70.4% )
{ Top 3 Match: 599/699 ( 85.7% )  Opponents: 548/697 ( 78.6% )
{ Top 4 Match: 624/699 ( 89.3% )  Opponents: 582/697 ( 83.5% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 775/1396 ( 55.5% )
{ Top 2 Match: 1029/1396 ( 73.7% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1147/1396 ( 82.2% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1206/1396 ( 86.4% )
 
Fischer Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Robert James Fischer (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 382/618 ( 61.8% )  Opponents: 330/616 ( 53.6% )
{ Top 2 Match: 495/618 ( 80.1% )  Opponents: 436/616 ( 70.8% )
{ Top 3 Match: 540/618 ( 87.4% )  Opponents: 507/616 ( 82.3% )
{ Top 4 Match: 564/618 ( 91.3% )  Opponents: 538/616 ( 87.3% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 712/1234 ( 57.7% )
{ Top 2 Match: 931/1234 ( 75.4% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1047/1234 ( 84.8% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1102/1234 ( 89.3% )
 
Capablanca Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Jose Raul Capablanca (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 451/812 ( 55.5% )  Opponents: 374/810 ( 46.2% )
{ Top 2 Match: 582/812 ( 71.7% )  Opponents: 516/810 ( 63.7% )
{ Top 3 Match: 659/812 ( 81.2% )  Opponents: 594/810 ( 73.3% )
{ Top 4 Match: 703/812 ( 86.6% )  Opponents: 658/810 ( 81.2% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 825/1622 ( 50.9% )
{ Top 2 Match: 1098/1622 ( 67.7% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1253/1622 ( 77.3% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1361/1622 ( 83.9% )
 
Lasker Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Emanuel Lasker (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 451/841 ( 53.6% )  Opponents: 427/839 ( 50.9% )
{ Top 2 Match: 600/841 ( 71.3% )  Opponents: 570/839 ( 67.9% )
{ Top 3 Match: 692/841 ( 82.3% )  Opponents: 659/839 ( 78.5% )
{ Top 4 Match: 735/841 ( 87.4% )  Opponents: 701/839 ( 83.6% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 878/1680 ( 52.3% )
{ Top 2 Match: 1170/1680 ( 69.6% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1351/1680 ( 80.4% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1436/1680 ( 85.5% )
 
Botvinnik Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Mikhail Botvinnik (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 397/708 ( 56.1% )  Opponents: 359/707 ( 50.8% )
{ Top 2 Match: 533/708 ( 75.3% )  Opponents: 489/707 ( 69.2% )
{ Top 3 Match: 591/708 ( 83.5% )  Opponents: 551/707 ( 77.9% )
{ Top 4 Match: 623/708 ( 88.0% )  Opponents: 593/707 ( 83.9% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 756/1415 ( 53.4% )
{ Top 2 Match: 1022/1415 ( 72.2% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1142/1415 ( 80.7% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1216/1415 ( 85.9% )
 
Alekhine Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Alexander Alekhine (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 396/763 ( 51.9% )  Opponents: 385/762 ( 50.5% )
{ Top 2 Match: 529/763 ( 69.3% )  Opponents: 534/762 ( 70.1% )
{ Top 3 Match: 595/763 ( 78.0% )  Opponents: 592/762 ( 77.7% )
{ Top 4 Match: 641/763 ( 84.0% )  Opponents: 642/762 ( 84.3% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 781/1525 ( 51.2% )
{ Top 2 Match: 1063/1525 ( 69.7% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1187/1525 ( 77.8% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1283/1525 ( 84.1% )
 
Karpov Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Anatoly Karpov (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 395/732 ( 54.0% )  Opponents: 362/728 ( 49.7% )
{ Top 2 Match: 512/732 ( 69.9% )  Opponents: 513/728 ( 70.5% )
{ Top 3 Match: 571/732 ( 78.0% )  Opponents: 584/728 ( 80.2% )
{ Top 4 Match: 623/732 ( 85.1% )  Opponents: 625/728 ( 85.9% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 757/1460 ( 51.8% )
{ Top 2 Match: 1025/1460 ( 70.2% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1155/1460 ( 79.1% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1248/1460 ( 85.5% )
 
Anand Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Viswanathan Anand (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 384/726 ( 52.9% )  Opponents: 352/726 ( 48.5% )
{ Top 2 Match: 523/726 ( 72.0% )  Opponents: 476/726 ( 65.6% )
{ Top 3 Match: 584/726 ( 80.4% )  Opponents: 544/726 ( 74.9% )
{ Top 4 Match: 617/726 ( 85.0% )  Opponents: 596/726 ( 82.1% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 736/1452 ( 50.7% )
{ Top 2 Match: 999/1452 ( 68.8% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1128/1452 ( 77.7% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1213/1452 ( 83.5% )
 
Kramnik Chessmetrics peak years play
{ Vladimir Kramnik (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 384/734 ( 52.3% )  Opponents: 384/727 ( 52.8% )
{ Top 2 Match: 534/734 ( 72.8% )  Opponents: 530/727 ( 72.9% )
{ Top 3 Match: 614/734 ( 83.7% )  Opponents: 589/727 ( 81.0% )
{ Top 4 Match: 649/734 ( 88.4% )  Opponents: 628/727 ( 86.4% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 768/1461 ( 52.6% )
{ Top 2 Match: 1064/1461 ( 72.8% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1203/1461 ( 82.3% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1277/1461 ( 87.4% )
 
Pillsbury Chessmetrics peak years play 
 { Harry Nelson Pillsbury (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 468/819 ( 57.1% )  Opponents: 396/816 ( 48.5% )
{ Top 2 Match: 602/819 ( 73.5% )  Opponents: 553/816 ( 67.8% )
{ Top 3 Match: 671/819 ( 81.9% )  Opponents: 638/816 ( 78.2% )
{ Top 4 Match: 714/819 ( 87.2% )  Opponents: 692/816 ( 84.8% )
 
{ All Players }
{ Top 1 Match: 864/1635 ( 52.8% )
{ Top 2 Match: 1155/1635 ( 70.6% )
{ Top 3 Match: 1309/1635 ( 80.1% )
{ Top 4 Match: 1406/1635 ( 86.0% )
 
{ Top 10 Chessmetrics 3 year peak players (Games: 200) }
{ Top 1 Match: 4121/7452 ( 55.3% )
{ Top 2 Match: 5448/7452 ( 73.1% )
{ Top 3 Match: 6116/7452 ( 82.1% )
{ Top 4 Match: 6493/7452 ( 87.1% )
SmyslovFan

According to chess db, the player who had the highest computer match up of all time was Viacheslav Ikkonikov. Computer match up rates have their uses, but are also limited in that once you get to a certain level players can use "correctness" against you. This was something that Capa didn't understand, but the Dynamic School led by the great Soviet players of the 1950s and 1969s did.

Imagine a match between Capa and Tal. I think it would be one of the great matches of all time, and I think Tal would win. Tal had lower engine match up rates than Capa, but he understood the importance of dynamism. Today's elite players incorporate the lessons of Capa and of Tal into their games.

Pursuantspy
SmyslovFan wrote:

According to chess db, the player who had the highest computer match up of all time was Viacheslav Ikkonikov. Computer match up rates have their uses, but are also limited in that once you get to a certain level players can use "correctness" against you. This was something that Capa didn't understand, but the Dynamic School led by the great Soviet players of the 1950s and 1969s did.

 

Imagine a match between Capa and Tal. I think it would be one of the great matches of all time, and I think Tal would win. Tal had lower engine match up rates than Capa, but he understood the importance of dynamism. Today's elite players incorporate the lessons of Capa and of Tal into their games.

if the basis for who's the best in your mind is engine match up rates then you have to eliminate every one before the 60s , Paul Morphy etc, because chess theory wasn't as evolved back then.

SmyslovFan

Yup.

I also eliminate the best track athletes from before 1960 as the fastest of all time because their times are slower than those of athletes today.

Emil Zatopec, Jesse Owens and Roger Bannister are among my all-time favorite athletes, but their best times can't compete with the best athletes today.

SmyslovFan

Btw, it's Ikonnikov. Sorry about the typo above. His first name may have been transliterated differently than I spelled it, there are several English spellings for Viacheslav the Wise.

SteveCollyer
Hang on, but what happens if a player from the early 1970's matches an engine to a greater extent in his games vs other top GMs than a modern player?  I think most top GMs would admit that they'd really struggle to beat Houdini on even a half-decent multi-core pc.  Aren't modern Super GMs supposed to be more engine-like because of all the prep they do that involves engine use & modern engine-derived opening/middlegame theory?  Not to mention that the top 10 players now are stronger than the top 10 were 45 years ago & therefore you'd expect a greater match up rate for modern GMs vs a ~3200 Elo rated engine.
 
I could understand the logic if Fischer's match rates were significantly lower than modern GMs, but that simply isn't the case.
 
Fischer Candidates 1971
 
{ Robert James Fischer (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 392/604 ( 64.9% )  
{ Top 2 Match: 492/604 ( 81.5% )  
{ Top 3 Match: 535/604 ( 88.6% )  
{ Top 4 Match: 556/604 ( 92.1% )  
 
Fischer-Spassky 1972 WC
 
{ Robert James Fischer (Games: 20) }
{ Top 1 Match: 385/658 ( 58.5% )  
{ Top 2 Match: 509/658 ( 77.4% )  
{ Top 3 Match: 563/658 ( 85.6% )    
 
------------------ 
 
Testing was done using the same criteria for each batch of games.
20 of the then most recently completed (2014/2013) from www.chessgames.com which all have a minimum of 35 total moves vs FIDE 2500+ rated opponents.  I ignored any games which had rapidplay/blitz in the pgn title.
 
1 Carlsen, Magnus g NOR 2881 5 1990
2 Aronian, Levon g ARM 2830 5 1982
3 Kramnik, Vladimir g RUS 2787 0 1975
4 Topalov, Veselin g BUL 2785 0 1975
5 Caruana, Fabiano g ITA 2783 5 1992
6 Grischuk, Alexander g RUS 2777 0 1983
7 Nakamura, Hikaru g USA 2772 5 1987
8 Anand, Viswanathan g IND 2770 7 1969
9 Karjakin, Sergey g RUS 2766 0 1990
10 Vachier-Lagrave, Maxime g FRA 2758 12 1990
 
{ Top 10 FIDE Super GMs (Games: 200) }
{ Top 1 Match: 4878/8620 ( 56.6% )
{ Top 2 Match: 6417/8620 ( 74.4% )
{ Top 3 Match: 7169/8620 ( 83.1% )
{ Top 4 Match: 7604/8620 ( 88.2% )
HinnoGM

kasaprov best chess player for all time !!

DjonniDerevnja
SteveCollyer wrote:
Hang on, but what happens if a player from the early 1970's matches an engine to a greater extent in his games vs other top GMs than a modern player? 

A lot of modern GMs (especially Magnus) are sidestepping the mainlines (which the computers probably prefers) to lead the game away from wellknown theory.  I dont think the computercomparations tells that Fisher is better or worse than them.

SmyslovFan

I'm a big fan of Kasparov's chess, but he finished third in a four player field. That wasn't "unbelievable". Sure, he played some great games, but he also played some howlers. And he was rusty too. I'd love to see him get back into the mix and knock some rust off.

Kasparov showed that he's capable of being in the top ten in the world, but he isn't the best in the world anymore. I just hope he decides to play more blitz and rapid tournaments. 

Kasparov at his best would have been a good match for Carlsen right now. I honestly don't know who's better, but I'm leaning towards Carlsen in part because he still has time to grow even stronger.

JudgeMental_OG
SmyslovFan wrote:

I'm a big fan of Kasparov's chess, but he finished third in a four player field. That wasn't "unbelievable". Sure, he played some great games, but he also played some howlers. And he was rusty too. I'd love to see him get back into the mix and knock some rust off.

Kasparov showed that he's capable of being in the top ten in the world, but he isn't the best in the world anymore. I just hope he decides to play more blitz and rapid tournaments. 

Kasparov at his best would have been a good match for Carlsen right now. I honestly don't know who's better, but I'm leaning towards Carlsen in part because he still has time to grow even stronger.

 

We have to also keep in mind he was playing BLITZ. In standard chess I think he would currently be in the top 3.

numberonetrollthere

who is bobby Fischer, giri is the best ever

SmyslovFan

Last year, Kasparov himself stated that he no longer has the stamina to compete at the highest levels. He himself thought he could break the top ten, but not much higher. He's never been known as one to underestimate himself.

darkeast
Capablanca ( as analysed by computers made the least error in his games then Fisher )
DjonniDerevnja
darkeast wrote:
Capablanca ( as analysed by computers made the least error in his games then Fisher )

Capablanca had probably easier opposition than Carlsen and Kasparov, and the same goes in a much smaller extent for Fisher.  

The better opposition you have, the more errors you will do.

LarrattGHP9

"I'm a big fan of Kasparov's chess, but he finished third in a four player field. That wasn't "unbelievable"

He beat Nakamura twice and easily reached winning positions against So a few times only to blunder. He destroyed Caruana a few times with black, I think that qualifies as great, considering he's not active anymore. Unbelievable? Well that's subjective.

 

At 53 to do that it shows you how strong he is/ was. At his best it would be very close against Carlsen.

LarrattGHP9

I asked Nigel Short if he think the best of Garry could beat today's Carlsen, he said 'Yes"....

DjonniDerevnja

I hold Kasparaov as the all time greatest, and I think Carlsen has what it takes to take his place ca ten years from now, but it is not a walk in the park. There are coming up superkids that can challenge him . Both Anish Giri, Richard Rapport and Wei Yi can become superstrong monsters (Magnusclass) in ca five years.

SmyslovFan

Already, there's only one person who maintained an active +2800 rating longer than Carlsen. Carlsen's been +2800 since he was 18. Just as with Kasparov before him, it's big news when Carlsen doesn't win a tournament.  

SmyslovFan
LarrattGHP9 wrote:

...

At 53 to do that it shows you how strong he is/ was. At his best it would be very close against Carlsen.

Yes! I would have loved to see a match between Kasparov at ~35 years old vs Carlsen now. I have a feeling that Carlsen still has another gear to explore, but we'll only see it if he has someone to challenge him regularly in the next ten years.