3 Dimensional Cubic Chess 8x8x8 Board

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Avatar of HGMuller

"In 2d, orthogonal moves can access all of the board whereas diagonal moves can't. In 3d, the same holds true only if you restrict diagonal moves to 2d."

Exactly. That (1,1,0) 'diagonal' steps are 'color bound', while (1,1,1) 'unicornal' steps are color alternating (but access only a quarter of the space) should already tell you that there is a huge qualitative difference between the two. That by combining these two move on your 'Bishop' allows it to reach the entire 'board' makes it very un-bishop-like.

What you say about Kings touches on the topology of the board. When you have a regular lattice is a matter of choice which cells you consider neighbors. The usual 2d chess board as 8-neighbor topology; all squares touching only in corners are considered neighbors. So a King can move diagonally, and there are Bishops. But you could have declared only the upper left and lower right corner to be connected to the square that shares the corner. Then you would have defined a hexagonal board, where each cell only has 6 neighbors. (And, unlike 8-neighbor topology, it turns out that all 6 neighbors are equivalent there. In 8-neighbor topology four of the neighbors only connect to two other neighbors, and four of them to four others. That is why Rooks and Bishops are different pieces. But on a hexagonal board the distinction between Rooks and Bishops blurs.)

You can do the same things in three dimensions. If you declare (1,1,1) moves as going to non-neighboring cells, the King should not have these moves, and Unicorns would not be elementary sliders but riders.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357
HGMuller wrote:

"In 2d, orthogonal moves can access all of the board whereas diagonal moves can't. In 3d, the same holds true only if you restrict diagonal moves to 2d."

Exactly. That (1,1,0) 'diagonal' steps are 'color bound', while (1,1,1) 'unicornal' steps are color alternating (but access only half the space) should already tell you that there is a huge qualitative difference between the two. That by combining these two move on your 'Bishop' allows it to reach the entire 'board' makes it very un-bishop-like.

What you say about Kings touches on the topology of the board. When you have a regular lattice is a matter of choice which cells you consider neighbors. The usual 2d chess board as 8-neighbor topology; all squares touching only in corners are considered neighbors. So a King can move diagonally, and there are Bishops. But you could have declared only the upper left and lower right corner to be connected to the square that shares the corner. Then you would have defined a hexagonal board, where each cell only has 6 neighbors. (And, unlike 8-neighbor topology, it turns out that all 6 neighbors are equivalent there. In 8-neighbor topology four of the neighbors only connect to two other neighbors, and four of them to four others. That is why Rooks and Bishops are different pieces. But on a hexagonal board the distinction between Rooks and Bishops blurs.)

You can do the same things in three dimensions. If you declare (1,1,1) moves as going to non-neighboring cells, the King should not have these moves, and Unicorns would not be elementary sliders but riders.

Incorrect. Unicorns could only access 1/4 of the board. You would need 4 unicorns starting in specific cubes to be able to cover the entire board. The best way to visualize this is that in any 2x2x2 cube sub-region of the 3d board, a unicorn would only have access to 2 of the 8 cubes. They are restricted quarterly due to the extra dimension. The color pattern holds for 2d bishops as their moves are in any one plane, but they alternate along 3d diagonals, so colors would not be able to determine what cubes the the unicorn could access. You would need to color the board with 4 colors to show this, and it may not even be able to be in a normal quad-alternation pattern, because the coloring would have to be based solely on the 3rd diagonals.

As for the kings, the topology of the movement is not any different. Unicorn-cubes are connected by a corner the same way diagonal squares are. There is no reason for these not to be considered neighbors. The definition of a king or queen move is "any direction" and no direction that is a straight line is excluded. I guess one could suggest a variant where all unicorn moves are excluded period, and every piece is restricted to a 2d plane per move, but this would seem awkward. In my opinion the moves a king could make should form a perfect enclosed cube around the king, the same way on a 2d board the possible moves form an enclosed square. It's the exact dimensional equivalent. Otherwise, a king could be right next to a queen and not be in check! How awkward would that be! Normal support mates wouldn't work either. So while on its own, one can consider the two types of diagonals to be different, for the game to be playable, and more consistent with other pieces, they should be considered the same. Of course in physics they have to be different as accelerating triagonally vs diagonally would result in different vectors/G-forces/orbits...etc, in just a pure mathematical game they could be treated the same.

Avatar of HGMuller

"Incorrect. Unicorns could only access 1/4 of the board."

True, I intended to write that, and had already corrected it. Basically the checkering of a 3d 26-nighbor topology should use four colors, say two light and two dark, and two reddish and two bluish. The Unicorns would always stay on their own color, the Bishops would be bound to both dark or both light colors.

"Unicorn-cubes are connected by a corner the same way diagonal squares are."

True, but the 2d example I gave was supposed to show you could discard these diagonal squares as neighbors too. And Bishop-cubes are connected the same way as orthogonal squares are: along an edge. But it is always a matter of choice. In checkers orthogonally adjacent squares are not considered neighbors.

"I guess one could suggest a variant where all unicorn moves are excluded period, and every piece is restricted to a 2d plane per move, but this would seem awkward"

Well, in a 2d analogue you could say that discarding corner-sharing squares as neighbors, and restricting moves to files and ranks only is awkward. But Xiangqi is close to doing that. The King cannot move diagonally, and there are no Bishops.

And note that moves are not necessarily restricted to steping to neighbor cells. Non-neighbors would simply be 'distant' cells, and pieces could 'jump' to those. Such as the Knight does in the orthodox 8-neighbor topology.

"In my opinion the moves a king could make should form a perfect enclosed cube around the king,"

In my opinion too, but I realize that it is just a choice, perhaps made for aesthetic reasons, and not a logical necessity. And if we define King moves as 'steps', and the cells they can reach as 'neighbors', then we have defined a topology where each cell has three non-equivalent kinds of neighbors, which border on 6, 10 or 16 other neighbors, respectively. And these three kinds of steps then define the three elementary sliders.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Well the thing with 2 dimensions is that the dimensions are so limited that you have to distinguish between edge/corner connections. But in 3, you don't absolutely have to. In 3d orthogonal cubes just share a surface, and diagonal-cubes share either an edge or a corner. I wouldn't say the king enclosed square is just an asthetic preference, as without the diagonal in 2d or unicorn in 3d, it's basically a limited range rook. OK in 3d it can still move like the traditional bishop but still would seem weird. Like a truncated cube around the king. It's also consistent with other pieces as just like im 2d, the bishop can move to any of the immediate squares surrounding it, except the squares a rook move away. In 3d, giving the bishop both types of moves is consistent with that. The only nearby cubes it couldn't touch are the ones a 3d room move away

Avatar of HGMuller

You don't have to do anything in 2d any more than in 3d. A game with only Kings, Queens and Knights (which is what you get when you refuse to distinguish between orthogonal and diagonal neighbors) is perfectly viable.

"the bishop can move to any of the immediate squares surrounding it, except the squares a rook move away."

Yeah, and the Rook can move to any of the squares immediately surrounding it, except those a Bishop move away in 2d. So why not make the 3d 'Bishop' move (1,1,1), and then give the 3d 'Rook' the (1,0,0) and (1,1,0) move? This is not an argument for what you are advocating, it works just as well the other way around. Or in fact many other ways around, because we xould also have given the Bishop the (1,1,0) move, and the Rook all others = (1,0,0) + (1,1,1). It is all totally arbitrary, there is no logical basis for it at all.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Not having diagonal moving pieces at all seems much more absurd than just combining all the diagonal movements into one piece don't you think?

The rook and bishop moves aren't arbitrary in 3 dimensions, you are simply extending the parameters of their movements up to 3 dimensions. Rooks still move "vertically, bak and forth, and left and right", while bishops still move "diagonally". It's just that as you increase in dimensions, the number of diagonals increases faster than orthogonal lines. That's just geometry. It doesn't mean we should make a rook also have partial bishops moves. Regardless of whether you want to split diagonal moves or not bishops should still only go on diagonals.

Avatar of HGMuller

"It's just that as you increase in dimensions, the number of diagonals increases faster than orthogonal lines."

No, that is not it at all. What is the case is that the classification orthogonal vs diagonal no longer makes sense, because there are more than two non-symmetry-equivalent rays. And treating a number of those as if they were the same is completely arbitrary. That the number of rays of any of the types also increases (e.g. from 4 diagonals in 2d to 12 (1,1,0) moves in 3d is an entirely unrelated issue.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Yes they all increase, but rook directions only increase linearly with the dimensions. 2 directions per dimension X the number of dimensions. Diagonals increase because they vary in dimensionality. 2d chess just has 2d diagonals that's it. But 3d chess, has 2d diagonals, 2d diagonals in 3 separate planes, and 3d diagonals. 4d chess would have 2d diagonals, 2d diagonals in 3 dimensions, 2d diagonals in 4 dimensions, 3d diagonals, 3d diagonals in 4 dimensions, and 4d diagonals. So as you can see diagonals increase geometrically, while the rook moves only increase linearly.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Right now I am trying to visualize whether a king and 2 knights can checkmate a king in a corner of a 3d board. Let's say the black king is on 8a8, and the white king is on 8a6. 8 cubes need to be covered by the white pieces. The white king covers 7a7, 8a7, 7b7, and 8b7. A knight checking from 7b6 would attack the king on 8a8 (2-1-1) but would also cover 8b8 (2-1), and 7a8. One more knight can be put in 7d7 to cover 8b8 (2-1-1) so it works.

Avatar of Elroch

Chess itself is very arbitrary. To me a more interesting question would be what is a good 3D analog of Go?

My first observation would be that you'd probably like quite a small cube, because the number of cells determines the length of the game in Go. A standard board is 19x19 = 361 locations, which makes games longer than chess games - the average number of half moves is 211 (i.e. 105 per player).

7x7x7 would be the nearest to this size in 3D. 8x8x8 would be 512 locations, so quite a bit larger than a 19x19.

7x7x7 go would be a very different game to 19x19 go, with the edge so close in all directions. I suspect the central location would be the best first move! Which is a bit of a rash thing to say since I haven't yet chosen the rules...

9x9 and 13x13 games are played, mostly by beginners. Computers got good on small boards when they were still feeble on 19x19 boards (of course now open source AlphaGo is very strong. Similarly LeelaGo. But humans have been fighting back!).

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Nah I like when the board is simply scaled up in the 3rd dimension without altering its already existing dimensions! That's why I was never a fan of that 5x5x5 chess I keep coming across online when looking this stuff lol.

Avatar of Elroch

It's different with chess, because the length of the game doesn't necessarily go up with the size of the board. In go, all the territory has to be won.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Well the thing is I altered the number of pieces to account for that, without adding new piece types. On an 8x8x8 cubic board, this is what the initial set-up would look like:

White pieces on the bottom (plane 1):

White pawns on plane 2 directly above the pieces (64 in total and the pawns only move up vertically):

64 black pawns on the 7th level:

Black pieces nearly mirroring the white pieces on the top level (plane 8):

But what we were mostly debating is how the bishop and knight moves would be interpreted in 3d. I thought the bishop should combine both 2d and 3d triagonal moves in one piece, and the other person here thought there should be a separate piece for the 3d bishop moves and (2-1-1) knight moves, if you don't mind skimming our arguments, what do you think?

Avatar of Elroch

Absurdly complex. When there is no hope of calculation, it's not as good a game.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

What if we temporarily simplified and just looked at curiosities such as king and queen mates. How many Queens would it take to force a checkmate? We know standard King + Queen support checkmate positions work in 3d and any dimension, but how many Queens necessary to force a checkmate? As others have pointed out, it's much harder to cut off a kings potential 26 escape cubes with individual straight-line pieces. What modifications would have to made to this for the pattern to work in 3d?

Avatar of jankogajdosko

What about 8D chess? I saw 5D chess but its not enought. I want something Beyound mortal man, cosmic horror that will tear down my mind and sanity while only looking at the board or attempting ot move the pawn.

Avatar of Elroch

A single 3Dqueen can mate in the corner of a 3D board (supported by a 3-king). In multiple ways, in fact - there are 7 cubes (the analog of squares) where a 3Dqueen controls the corner cube and all adjacent cubes. Then there are multiple cubes for the attacking 3Dking to protect that 3Dqueen from.

Forcing it should be possible, a process of nudging the defending king nearer the corner by first getting it on a face, then an edge and finally the corner.

I conjecture that the generalisation of this procedure works to allow a NDQueen and NDKing to mate an NDKing on any NDrectangular board.

(I am not 100% sure. While a queen chops the board in 2 in 2D, it does not do so in 3, so proximity has to be enough to avoid the defender getting through the holes. I am assuming an NDqueen can move any vector where the elements of the vector are k, -k or 0 for some natural number k. Eg in 3D it can move in 3^3-1 directions, which is 26 directions. In n-D it is 3^n-1 directions. [Check - in 2D it is 3^2-1 = 8 directions, which is right].

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

Yeah unlike in 2d, the lines the queen controls don't cut the king off from many of the 26 possible directions, because the lines it controls are still one dimensional and to cut off a king in 3d would have to cut off an entire plane at a time to force the king to a face, let alone an edge. Obvious support checkmates work even just in the center of an edge-plane, with the queen directly on top of the king and the king defending in from any cube 1 away from it. I don't think a king and 1 queen could cut off all the possible escape cubes together though from a central position. Maybe 2 Queens, that was my next question, hard to visualize but could 2 Queens mate the king in the center of a 3d board, without the kings help?

Avatar of Elroch

I think one 3-queen (and 3-king) is enough to force the opposing king to the boundary. Probably even the corner, if necessary. Indeed I think this is true in n-D for all n. But I am not close to sure!

Below, you see 3 slices of a 3D board, all with a boundary on the left and bottom, and the 0 slice is also a boundary (so the bottom left of slice 0 is a corner).

I originally thought this example was fairly convincing, but black can do better and make it more difficult by going to slice 2. I believe white has a win, but to demonstrate this requires a lot more care than I have put in.

Avatar of EndgameEnthusiast2357

3 kings? I only have 1 king in my version. The question is how many Queens does it take with the help of the king?