"Hate it..."
Why?
Chess 960. Love it? Or not really?
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varelse1 "Because in Standard Chess, I get to play exactly like Kasparov, for the first 12 moves!"
Yes,12 or even 20,or even more.Which isn't good,of course-it's like function of "copy-paste".
netzach wrote:
If you can play chess then you can play 960 without difficulty. I like it.
"Play, yes ; but play well ...?"
I believe that netzach by saying "you can play 960" meant "play well".
SaharanKnight wrote:
Patscher wrote:
Chess 960 can't be played live. You have to spend lots of time since the opening, so blitz 960 isn't good.
I think this would be generally true. Except for perhaps some very high-level players, if one doesn't have time to spend figuring out the opening, one will have a poor game technically -- usually worse than blitz games in standard chess.
"Well, just make the time controls longer. Double each. It should be more than enough."
Well,firstly,make ANY sort of time control (beside correspondence,of course),then try to make ALL sorts of time control,and then we will simply see what fits best to every single individual player! Just like in traditional chess!
And as for what SaharanKnight wrote-here we go again,everything is relative! Generally,what a player of first category is to a master,is what a master is to grandmaster.Besides,you cannot compare positions in that manner-"technically worse than in blitz".Because it's ALL about comparing white's position to black's position-that goes for tournament chess,correspondence chess,blitz chess,bullet chess,blind chess,and also for chess960!
marljivi wrote:
netzach wrote:
If you can play chess then you can play 960 without difficulty. I like it.
"Play, yes ; but play well ...?"
I believe that netzach by saying "you can play 960" meant "play well".
Okay. Think what was trying to say was that in classical c.c chess on this site at beginning are not really playing opponent at all?
Actually are mostly playing against someone's database/learning/opening resources until later in the game??
With chess 960 these factors are reduced and pretty quickly can just look at and play the position as it stands on the chessboard.
SaharanKnight: "So why don't we have a serious discussion here or in another forum about figuring out opening 960 play? I have been waiting for such a serious discussion for months and have tried to encourage that... but no takers!! (And to have a serious, meaningful discussion, one has to get into the details, sometimes with board examples of play.)"
Most probably simply because people are afraid of playing chess960-they are worried about the possibility that chess960 could disclose their incapability of being creative.And as for figuring out opening play in chess960-yeah,well,that is truly an art,truly a science.I can say for myself that I always firstly check if all my(=opponent's) pawns are defended.There cannot be more than 2 pawns on one side undefended in initial position.Then,in case if there are undefendet pawns,I check (with white) if I am able to attack them with my first move already.If yes,then in 99% of cases I also choose that move (it cannot be anything else but pawn move-in 99% of cases I advance it for 2 squares,if the pawn cannot be attacked there,for the sake of gaining space and attacking opponent's pawn at the same time!),and when I play with black,I consider the same things,except that from defensive point of view-I try to oppose my opponent's attacking ideas in the best manner I can.Otherwise-with or without hanging pawns in initial position-I always try to do at the same time the following: develop my pieces(usually towards the center,extremely rarely towards opponent's king on b8 or g8),occupy the center with my pawns(of course,if I get an initial position with,let's say,Nd1,Ke1,Nf1,then most probably I won't start the game with 1.e4,but-in very general sense-the central squares in chess960 are just as important as in traditional chess,so perhaps sometimes,due to initial position of pieces,the move 1.e4 isn't good,but quiet likely it will be very good to play e2-e4 on move,let's say,number 5 or 10 or 15.),and castle-I believe castling is more or less essential also in chess960-thanks to castling,you get your rooks connected,which-apart from piece activity-also gives you better king safety,in an overall evaluation!
marljivi wrote:
netzach wrote:
If you can play chess then you can play 960 without difficulty. I like it.
"Play, yes ; but play well ...?"
I believe that netzach by saying "you can play 960" meant "play well".
"Okay. Think what was trying to say was that in classical c.c chess on this site at beginning are not really playing opponent at all?
Actually are mostly playing against someone's database/learning/opening resources until later in the game??
With chess 960 these factors are reduced and pretty quickly can just look at and play the position as it stands on the chessboard."
Precisely so.And not only on this (web)site. :-)
Mr. FM marljivi, in a regular chess game, after one turn, there is only 200 possibilities for moves to make. With 960, it seems that there is just short of 19,200 possibilites (200x960, but I would have to figure out how many positions have knights on the a1, h1, a8, and h8 squares) for the first move. Wouldn't creativity be much more prominent in a game where there is more than 19,000 possibilities after the first turn in comparrison to the one with only 200?
Ok,I am not completely sure if I understand you correctly.First of all,in a regular chess game,after one turn,there is not 200,but 400 possibilities for moves to make (20x20).Secondly,in chess960 there are 36 positions that have both knights in the corner (b1 to g1 for other pieces=(3x3 for bishops)x(4 for queen)x(1 for rook,king,rook)=36.Thirdly,if I understand correctly,you agree with me about the fact that chess960 is much more creative game than traditional chess(?).
Excuse me with my errors. I meant 400, I was trying to do math homework at the same time and was playing with too many numbers at the same time. And for the second part, does that include one knight on either a1 or h1, but not one on the other corner? Thirdly, yes, I do think that 960 is more creative because the possibilities after just one turn are more than 900 times greater, and so more positions could arrive afterwards which would be impossible in a normal game, yet with 960 you can get to a position which can be found in a normal game, though it is very unlikely to happen until the endgame.
Otherwise,200x960 is 192000,but you probably meant 400x960,which is 384000. However,we truly have to calculate all those positions that have one or both knight in the corner.And it goes as follows: for both knights in the corner I have already explained that there are 36 positions possible.
For only having Na1 is (from b1 to h1 for other pieces=4x3 (for bishops) x 5 (for queen) x 3 (for other knight) x 1 (for rook,king,rook)=180,then plus 180(positions with only knight on h1) =360,so that we have 360 possible positions with one knight in the corner.
960-360-36=564,so that we have 564 possible positions with no knights in the corner.
Now we can start to calculate possible number of first-turn moves:
564x20=11280
360x19=6840
36x18=648
Final step is 11280+6840+648=18768
So,there are 18768 first-turn possibilities in chess960.
Aha,ok.No problem. It happens to everybody. :-)
And the second part I've explained just now. :-)
Thank you, Mr. FM marljivi.
O,actually I calculated only first-turn possibilities for white,but if we want to have the number for both sides,the calculation at the very end goes as follows: 11280x20 + 6840x19 + 648x18 =225600+129960+11664=367224.
So,we have 367224 first turn possibilities in chess960.
You're welcome.
"There cannot be more than 2 pawns on one side undefended in initial position."
In fact there are some very few positions with 3 undefended pawns.
The blog Chess960 jungle has made some more serious attempts to clasify and analyze chess960 openings. They have also tried to find SP:s that are lost for black but so far not found any, although there are some SP:s that are more dificult than others and black can quickly get in serious disadvantage if he does not play accurately.
morgondag wrote:
... The blog Chess960 jungle has made some more serious attempts to clasify and analyze chess960 openings. They have also tried to find SP:s that are lost for black but so far not found any, although there are some SP:s that are more dificult than others and black can quickly get in serious disadvantage if he does not play accurately.
Where exactly can one find this blog? Also, I don't think there could be even a single SP that is lost for black... although some are definitely more difficult.
Waw,you are right about 3 undefended pawns in a starting position,Morgondag.Thanks for the enlightment. :-)
Well,to be even more exact,I say there are 4 starting positions with 3 undefended pawns: 1.) Na1,Nb1,Rc1,Kd1,Be1,Qf1,Rg1,Bh1.
2.) Na1,Nb1,Rc1,Qd1,Be1,Kf1,Rg1,Bh1.
3.) Ba1,Rb1,Qc1,Bd1,Ke1,Rf1,Ng1,Nh1.
4.) Ba1,Rb1,Kc1,Bd1,Qe1,Rf1,Ng1,Nh1.
Am I right this time? :-)
Probably, I don´t know the exact positions but I remember reading about it.
The site is:
http://chess960jungle.blogspot.com/
And its sister blog:
http://chess960frc.blogspot.com/
Really it is not so much 960 openings as 960 starting positions (SP) that they have been trying to map up and analyze some of their characteristics. For example SP:s with Ba1,Bb1 and K on e.g. g1 tend to be very sharp, particularily if Q also can join the B fast, e.g. from c1. And same in the mirror position of course.
On the other hand with Ba1, Bh1 the B oppose and often neutralize each other or get exchanged.
Games with Q in the corner tend to be slower and developing the Q is a very important strategic concern.
They also create a whole new and very nice terminology, "Titualar Bishops", "Military Knights" and so on.
DazedKnight
"I have enough difficulty with regular chess."
Hm...Maybe you would have less difficulty with chess960-have you ever though of that?