Could we please stop calling Chess960 a variant?

Hi there

I cannot help to be pedantic sorry about that. If the post-impressionists could perceive an undeniable set of rules that generalises and encompasses impressionism, such that any post impressionist artist could reproduce any possible impressionist work of art with those rules without altering the impressionist work's of art that we currently have in the galleries, but at the same time adding new impressionist art to the existing works within the limits of the generalized form, then post impressionism has not invented impressionism. Impressionism would still stand on it's own, but each impressionist work of art would become interrelated with each other, unified by the general rule of post impressionist art.

We are making a basic mistake in our thinking about Chess960. Nothing has been created and nothing has been destroyed in the process please understand that. We had a specific starting position SP518. Within that specific form, there is an undeniable inference that a general form is possible. That general form was there all along within the specific form, buried within it. In other words the specific has implied the general and the general implies the specific, but both entities were always existent from the moment the specific form was created. It is just a chicken and egg problem in our mind.

When Chess was invented, so too was Chess960. All that has happened is that today we have reached a moment in causality where we acknowledge that Chess960 is necessary in an age where every single chess player on the planet can analyse SP518 to death with their pocket computer. 

National Master Tonydal put it perfectly a few pages back at post #37:

"Ah yes, the well-known generalization/variant dichotomy..."

The general form always existed within the specific form and visa versa. It is just that our mind has made a distinction between the two at this moment. That is a classic dichotomy. The only "mutation" is in our thought processes as you can see from a continuous transformation from Benko to Fischer. But in terms of both Chess960 and Chess as entities, both remain unaltered from the moment the specific form was created those centuries ago. In terms of our mind, the only mutation that has occurred is that we have become willing to apply the principals of chess play as we understand them, to the general form of Chess960, as well as to the specific form SP518 and the other 959 SP's.

If this has made you think about the theory of Evolution itself for example, then it can only be a good thing. Just I encourage you to not argue unnecessarily, but merely try to understand and harmonize your thought processes. We are all mutants, nerds and geeks in a way as soon as we begin to think!

Cheers

All specific games are avatars of the game of all possible games.

Only One of these is perfect in the eyes of Shiva.

Before the One kindles the tinder of a mortal brain, Brahma will awake and slumber many times.

In the meanwhile, let us praise what is ours.

Atos: 'that seems rather like saying that traditional chess was invented by the people who introduced the rules for castling and en pass-ant'

I'm not sure I get your point. Without the two rules that you mention, traditional chess (aka modern chess) would not be the game that we play today. It would be some other game. So, yes, traditional chess *was* invented by the people who introduced the rules for castling and en passant. That's not to say that they invented the precursors of traditional chess, like medieval chess or like the versions without castling and en passant. The evolutionary sequence is clear and undisputable.

My point is that chess960 incorporates traditional chess 100%. When you play traditional chess, you are in fact playing chess960, restricted to one of the 960 different start positions (RNBQKBNR). I could say that the just-finished Olympiad was really a chess960 tournament restricted to RNBQKBNR, and I would not be wrong. (I would raise a storm of controversy, but I would not be wrong).

Chess960 is an evolution of traditional chess. To use an analogy, imagine I build a house on a lot that was previously empty. I call the road it is on 'Chess Street'. The house might be in use for centuries before someone (a certain Mr. Fischer) gets the idea to build more houses on the same lot. He builds 959 similar houses and, to make it easier to identify the houses, assigns them numbers. My original house turns out to be no.518 on Chess Street. Note that I haven't altered the function of the original house nor have I destroyed it. It is still available to everyone who used it before. But for those who are tired of the same house and want something a little different, they have many choices.

I could carry the analogy further, but I'm not sure it would help clarify the difference between traditional chess and chess960. People who want to continue living at no.518 on Chess St. can do so. They do, however, have choices that were not available 20 years ago. - Mark

P.S. While I sympathize with the title of the post that started this thread, it's a red herring. For me it's enough that Chess.com has provided this forum where chess960 is given pride of place in the title.

Maybe the idea of having Chess960 to be considered a completely different game from Chess stemmed from the same idea about the alphabet and languages. A quick search on the Internet to the question, "How many languages use the Latin alphabet?" brought me here:

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_languages_use_the_Latin_alphabet

99 unique languages share the same Latin alphabet for their written form, yet 98 of those are not called Latin.

If this were the perspective of the OP, the thead's plea would make sense.

Question: What good does it do to disassociate Chess960 from Chess?

it would be pretty confusing if all of them were called Latin.

So, it would probably be equally confusing if al SP's were called chess?

I get the need to be named differently for clarity, but Chess960 sounds more like a dialect of Chess rather than a completely different language that only shares the same alphabet.

Maybe if the rules and playing area were that of Go except for the standard Chess pieces, there would be less resistance with the acceptance that Chess960 was not a variant of Chess.

chessroboto: 'Question: What good does it do to disassociate Chess960 from Chess?'

For one thing, chess is de facto a simpler game than chess960. The fixed start position in chess means that players can prepare by compiling databases, studying books, running engines on positions they will encounter in real play, and memorizing opening variations. In chess960, those crutches are no longer available.

Traditional chess also limits the number of recurring patterns that can arise early in the game. This makes it easier to master certain Pawn structures, like IQPs or Pawn chains anchored on e5. In chess960 you have to work out unfamiliar patterns while the clock is ticking. Of course, once you reach the endgame, you are back on familiar territory. This gives an advantage to good endgame players, who are a rare breed.

Some players report a light feeling of nausea when they start to play chess960 and are confronted with a new start position. I'm convinced this is because they actually have to think starting from the first move, and this unfamiliar feeling literally sets their thoughts spinning. It's like the panic you feel in traditional chess when your opponent makes a move you didn't expect.

One day, traditional chess might even be considered the equivalent of training wheels for chess960. After you have mastered the basics of RNBQKBNR and are ready for a fight starting from the first move, you move to random start positions.

Does that answer your question? - Mark

Sorry, but it doesn't. I do understand the differences in gameplay and why people either like or hate Chess960. What I meant by "disaccociation" was closer to Chess960 not being a variant of Chess per this thread's topic.

Rephrased question: What good would it do if Chess960 were a variant of Chess or not?

I didn't think it would, but it gave me the chance to stand on the soapbox again. To answer your rephrased question, it wouldn't make the least bit of difference. It's neither here nor there. - Mark

Dammit. There goes the neighborhood.

it also has different rules for castling.  But your logic is flawed in general in that "chess" simply describes the game in general, and any specific set of rules describes some variation thereof.  "standard" chess would be one variant, "chess960" would be another variant.  Chess960 is not a "generalization" of chess any more than "a game" is a generalization of Chess 960. 

In that case, Chaturanga is the original version; everything else (including the current standard version) is just a variant.

Bur_Oak: 'Dammit. There goes the neighborhood.'

I nominate that as the motto for all those who dislike chess960!

CapAnson: 'it also has different rules for castling.'

You've missed earlier portions of the discussion. The chess960 castling rules are based on traditional chess rules. It is exactly those rules (1) that make traditional chess a subset of chess960 and, (2) that drive the other 959 chess960 start positions toward middlegame positions that look like they arose from traditional chess. It is another example of Fischer's genius for all things concerning chess.

tonydal: 'Do they have muppets?'

Yes, they do. And a couple of old grouches that yell insults at passers-by. - Mark

There are actually 480 positions in Chess960, because half of the positions are reflections of the other half.

actually 479 more and a mirror

the game would be more intresting and fun if the game of chess had 2 more pieces: the archbishop and chancellor

No it is really weird sometimes Chess960! There are 960 unique positions not because of the pieces but because of the one single castling rule that applies to all 960 positions. As Bemweeks already mentioned, if you take the standard chess position SP518, and reverse just the queen and king, you get SP534. They are simply mirror images of each other but with forced differences in the approach to develop the pieces to effect castling into the same position as SP518! So you say "yeah fine I can handle this!" But If you actually start to play SP534 after a while you start to feel ill and simply have to burst out and laugh it is very funny. It is so close to standard chess yet so far and you say "hey what is going on here!?"

It is just practice. Lots of practice but it is fun. I would ask this question. What is the relationship between Classical music and Jazz? Is Jazz a variant of Classical? To me Chess960 is Jazz. There is a huge mountain of formalized theory within classical music but there is a huge mountain of theory in Jazz as well. But when it comes down to it, you are applying that theory by rearranging the notes in nice ways, the here and the now. I think we may have to spend fifty years of theory on SP534! How much opening theory can we actually borrow from SP518? I suspect that Bobby also had a good sense of humour!

SP534 the Jazz playin brother of our Classical SP518!

onetwentysix: 'There are actually 480 positions in Chess960, because half of the positions are reflections of the other half.'

You're right that 'half of the positions are reflections of the other half', but, as glider pointed out, they don't play the same because of the castling rules. Let's look at an example.

In traditional chess (SP518 RNBQKBNR) there are variations that allow castling O-O in four moves, which is the minimum. One example is the Ruy Lopez, Berlin Defense: 1.e4 e5 2.Nf3 Nc6 3.Bb5 Nf6 4.O-O. After castling, the castled pieces are on f1 and g1. This can lead to the Berlin Wall variation that helped Kramnik win the World Championship from Kasparov in 2000.

Now let's take the reflection, which has the King and Queen switched (SP534 RNBKQBNR). The equivalent variation is 1.d4 d5 2.Nc3 Nf6 3.Bg5 Nc6 4.O-O-O. This time the castled pieces are on d1 and c1. It's not at all the same thing. Now the Berlin Wall doesn't work, because the d-Pawn is protected. The theory is completely new.

Two positions that are reflections of each other I call 'twins'. I've also seen them called 'mirrors'. Whatever you call them, they are different positions that lead to different variations. - Mark

P.S. 'SP', as in SP518, is just shorthand for 'start position'.

when will people get tired of SP518 and move onto other SPs and develop opening theory for other SPs.

Hi One26

I ask the same question. If you like to find analysis on Chess960, take a look at the Advanced Chess960 group or even feel free to join and comment on 960! We cannot play games here at Chess.com unless they are without computer assistance because we are not allowed to and so analysis progress is slow, but we do analyse Chess960 and report our findings from games that we play at other sites that welcome it:

http://www.chess.com/groups/home/advanced-chess960-community

Chess960 is a lot of fun! That is the first thing to remember about it. I have tried over and over again to spread the word, but there is no point. People will find out for themselves in their own time what an enjoyable game Chess960 is and so be it. As Paul McCartney said, "Let it Be".

Cheers

I think it is more accurate to say chess960 is a generalization  of chess than to say it is a variant. A variant would not include its unchanged parent as a possibility for play.