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Seige of Dros Delnoch (LEBisho v Vickalan)

  • #1

    Game Thread for LEBisho/Vickalan

    More details about variant Here




    Win Conditions:

    White, representing the Drenai, will win if the Black King is captured or if Black has no remaining pawns/can be demonstrated to have no way of advancing a Pawn to the 1st rank.

    Black, representing the Nadir, will win if a pawn is advanced to the first rank.


    The Board

    The board represents the Nadir attack from North on the Dros. The advanced White Knights represent Drenai outriders who have scouted the Nadir force.




    The Pieces:
    Black and White each have the following pieces.








    Knights (N)



    Bishops (B) “The Thirty”



    Rooks (R)



    Queens (Q) Nosta Khan



    King (K) Ulric



    Earl (E) Earl of Bronze, Rek



    The Sender (S) Druss




    All pieces move as in classical chess, however Pawns may not move twice on first turn.

    The "extra" pieces move as follows:


    Earl (E)- Moves and captures as King, without check considerations. Has the special berserker “charge” ability which allows the Earl to move three squares in the direction it last moved as long as it captures during the charge. During a charge the Earl may capture on the first, second, or third square it moves to or any combination of the above (multiple captures) but will end the turn on the third square. Note, as a previous move is a pre-requisite “charge” cannot be used before the Earl has moved once.



    The Sender (S) – Moves and captures 2 squares in any direction. The Sender can change the direction of movement and even return to its original square. When captured, the Sender will capture any opponent pieces in the 9 surrounding squares, but will not capture the piece that captured it.




    Players may move 3 separate pieces on their turn before it is their opponents move. These moves take place sequentially not simultaneously. For play here, players should declare all three moves at the same time indicating the chosen move order.

    There is no castling.

    Black King must be captured and may move to squares where it may be captured.

    Knights cannot Leap walls

    Pieces may not move through walls.

    Knights move in an “L” shape and can navigate around walls in this manner.

    Pawns may not promote.

    Fifty-move rule applies.


    All other rules are the same as in classical chess.


    Move Notation:
    Numeric coordinates are used to identify piece locations as (file#, rank#). Increasing files are to the right, and increasing ranks are toward the back. Ranks are numbered, files are lettered. Notation is the same as classical Chess.


    To all:
    Please do not post any comments about this game here. I'd like to reserve this thread to just this game, and not go off-topic with ideas, criticisms, etc.
    If anyone has comments or ideas about Chess of Dros Delnoch please visit Here
    If anyone else would like to play please message me, but I am would like to test the variant against Vickalan first and check balance.
  • #2

    For my first moves I will go

    N(D19) to (F20)

    B(R7) to (P9)
    N(A16) to (C15)



    I will send you a copy of the board so you can keep updated if you want, alternatively I'll update board whenever its my turn.

  • #3
    We may not need the parenthesis for moves if we use lowercase for square labels, and uppercase for pieces. Although in Chess on an Infinite Plane I use the parenthesis because the files can be negative numbers, and I don't want R(1,4)-(-5,4) to look like "R1,4--5,4". But I guess it doesn't matter either way.
    Also, you don't need to send me a copy of the board. It's just as easy to copy from here if I want to work with it.  My three moves:
    (I normally won't post return images, but will do so here just to make sure my notation is correct for the moves I'd like to make).
  • #4

    i11, Ng18, Nf16



  • #5

    The complete game so far (just to show a consistent style for notation), and my next 3 moves:
    1. Nf20,Bp9,Nc15...h18,g21,Nf13
    2. i11,Ng18,Nf16...i18,j21,h14


  • #6

    Good improvement


    The complete game so far (just to show a consistent style for notation), and my next 3 moves:
    1. Nf20,Bp9,Nc15...h18,g21,Nf13
    2. i11,Ng18,Nf16...i18,j21,h14

    3. Bo6, m11, Ne17



  • #7

    1. Nf20,Bp9,Nc15...h18,g21,Nf13
    2. i11,Ng18,Nf16...i18,j21,h14
    3. Bo6,m11,Ne17... i14,Nc25,j20


  • #8

    1. Nf20,Bp9,Nc15...h18,g21,Nf13
    2. i11,Ng18,Nf16...i18,j21,h14
    3. Bo6,m11,Ne17... i14,Nc25,j20

    4. Ne14, Ng15, Nh16




    Wouldn't normally speculate prior to your move but genuinely curious to see what your assessment is here re: who is ahead on material/who benefits more from the Knight on front lines.

  • #9
    Since we've never played before I have nothing against sharing ideas or possible strategies...First thing to say is that normal chess has never been solved, so I'm sure there is no hope at all to guess how an end-game in this variant will play out, or to predict if either side starts with an advantage. We may already be playing terribly and there would be no way to know it.
    More interesting, this game is non-symmetrical in BOTH board-shape and material. So if one side starts to appear to be taking a lead, I think it will be almost impossible to know if it's due to strategy or a characteristic of this game. That's why I feel that almost certainly we will need to play two games to learn anything about both this game and our playing strengths.
    But normally two games can take a long time, so I would hesitate before playing a non-symmetrical large variant like this. But you may have solved the long playing time by allowing three moves per turn. (normal chess played with 2 moves per turn usually ends in about 15 moves I believe).
    So I think your combination of (large board) + (severe non-symmetry) + (3 moves per turn) makes this game very playable.
    As to strategy, I think most of the same concepts in normal chess would apply. One main theme is to create a structure where you can attack in a hierarchical strategy (i.e. start an attack with pawns, supported by minor pieces, then in turn supported by rooks/queens). Just as in chess it's usually poor strategy to bring out your queen early, the same theme would be true here also.

    As for a material comparison this is what I get (starting value): White pawns move like kings so may have a value of about 3 each. Not counting the Earl and Sender (white pieces) I get white has a total material value of 118, and black 89. What advantage do you see for black that helps make the game balanced. (or are my sums not correct)?
    One black advantage is that white has no pawns (pieces that move like pawns) so MUST use and deplete the king-like pawns to fight. I have not carried any analysis farther than this. What were your ideas in developing this game? I do like that you took non-symmetry and embraced it to the max. Some people have tried to find ways to get rid of the theoretical white "1/2" pawn first move advantage, but you just made the first-move advantage irrelevant because nothing else is symmetrical anyway. Very cool!
    My move:
    4. Ne14,Ng15,Nh16...i13,j14,Nc23
  • #10

    Just to clarify Vickalan my white pawns are just pawns if you check the rules here. Theyre not King pawns. This was my original intent but in that early version of the game there was a lot less of them and I changed them to just pawns and added more of them

  • #11
    Oh, thanks for pointing that out (I was careless to not read your latest version of the rules). Our pieces were almost ready to clash without me knowing the rules. So to update a material comparison (which I assume you've done, but wonder if my conclusion is similar to yours):
    If the Earl is worth 7 (3.5 for king, 3.5 for berserker ability), and the sender 9 (2x a king + 2 for annihilating ability) my guestimate is that white's pieces are worth 82 and black 89. So maybe I have a slight material advantage? If this is correct, then white should play defensively, and in this respect white has the advantage of starting in advantageous terrain (repeating what you've said). Since black must get to the first rank to win, he must play offense, so now I understand your foundation of this game. A "draw" in this game (failing to capture the opponent's king or key piece) is actually win for white, so that in itself could account for the 7 point differential in material difference. My (unprofessional ) guess is that this game is balanced and should play well.happy.png
  • #12

    Very similar. My feeling is that Black wins through force of numbers, if White does not make strong use of the Knight placement in the beginning whilst Black's first two lines of pawns are relatively exposed. This is the perhaps the only part of the game (if white can get bishops to the wings being the exception) where White gets to be the aggressor and I do think I am going to struggle if I can't win several pawns or equivalent pieces during this phase.

    1. Nf20,Bp9,Nc15...h18,g21,Nf13
    2. i11,Ng18,Nf16...i18,j21,h14
    3. Bo6,m11,Ne17... i14,Nc25,j20
    4. Ne14,Ng15,Nh16...i13,j14,Nc23
    5. Bi14, Kxf13, Kf15



  • #13

    I think you accidentally erased your knight on b17 (probably doing a cut instead of a copy to use for another knight's position?). I put him back. Also, I'm using N = knight (not K), which I think is more common in notation to avoid ambiguity with the king. (although there is only one king in this game and he probably won't move for a while).

    (with all the pieces in this game, and 3 moves per turn, it's probably always a good idea to double check each opponent's move to make sure it's legal and no mistakes, etc. Takes a little longer, but with 3 moves each reply game will keep moving ahead well I think). My play:



  • #14

    I agree, and thanks for noticing that. Apologies for the slow moving - been a busy few days and haven't managed to get much time with the laptop which is essential for this.

    1. Nf20,Bp9,Nc15...h18,g21,Nf13
    2. i11,Ng18,Nf16...i18,j21,h14
    3. Bo6,m11,Ne17... i14,Nc25,j20
    4. Ne14,Ng15,Nh16...i13,j14,Nc23
    5. Bi14, Kxf13, Kf15, ...Nxf13,n18,Nd24

    6. Bp9, Nd18, Nj15





  • #15

    No worries, I don't mind a break in the game every so often.

    6...i17, Ne22, j23
  • #16
    Where did you go?
    Btw, (to all): I really like the style of this game. It is a working example of a game that allows 3 moves per turn. It is also asymmetrical, which I usually don't care for, but here the asymmetry is so drastic to make it interesting.
    LEBisho, if you're still playing, leave a note (A move once a week is fine with me). But if not I might want to look for a new game to play somewhere. Or someone else can jump in for you?

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